This Sales Mindset Will Grow Your MSP

[00:00:00] If you run an MSP and you want somebody with technical background who can find business

[00:00:04] and close business, my question is what the hell do they need you for? Exactly.

[00:00:10] Exactly. What are you doing? They should just go start a rival MSP and smoke you because the

[00:00:14] word you're looking for is not salesperson, it's entrepreneur. Somebody who can take blank

[00:00:20] space and make money out of nothing and who understands your whole product line,

[00:00:25] they should have 49% of your business. Welcome to MSP Mindset, I'm your host Damien Stevens.

[00:00:36] Have you ever wondered can I sell and still sleep at night? Would you like to learn how

[00:00:41] to feel good and close deals as an MSP? Even more interesting join me as I interview Brian

[00:00:48] Gillette. He's a guy that was an actor turned into cold collar turned into VP of sales at an

[00:00:54] MSP and in less than three years took the MSP from 700k to 2 million recurring revenue. So

[00:01:04] if you want to learn how to not only grow your MSP but to do it with empathy, do it in a way

[00:01:11] that you can feel good and it's a win-win then you're not going to want to miss out on this

[00:01:15] conversation. Before you kind of became the the rose to VP of sales and did all the other

[00:01:21] things we're going to talk about that you did and became so successful in those endeavors,

[00:01:26] where did you go? It was a little in my opinion atypical. Yeah so around when I was 21 I moved

[00:01:36] from Oregon to Los Angeles to pursue a career in acting. Oregon to LA already sounds like a

[00:01:43] big move but then acting is also entirely different. Right, right. Yeah it was a pretty

[00:01:51] big shift. It was a pretty major culture shock. Oregon is, I don't know if there's any Oregonians

[00:01:57] listening, but Oregon is a really different place. It's highly individualistic, it's highly

[00:02:02] opinionated and usually uneducated opinions you know but everybody's incredibly aggressive

[00:02:08] about it but it's also relatively community driven and you move to LA which is like not

[00:02:13] community at all. Everybody's totally segregated, everybody's spread out, everybody says things

[00:02:17] that they don't mean. You know it was like a pretty major shift and I yeah started acting.

[00:02:22] I mean I was already, I was an actor when I was younger and I kind of always knew I wanted to do

[00:02:28] something along those lines but I yeah just finally somebody told me hey you should just

[00:02:33] really try it and I did so I moved to LA for a couple of years and during that time I think

[00:02:37] I had like I think I had 10 jobs. I lost count around 10 in the two and a half years I was

[00:02:43] just trying acting full time which is really hard. It's a different type of rejection.

[00:02:51] Cold callers talk about rejection and I kind of smirk because getting rejected over the phone

[00:02:56] when you're just trying to sell a product is completely impersonal. The rejection has nothing

[00:03:01] to do with you, the rejection is all about the timing that you called or the product that you're

[00:03:05] trying to sell. When you're an actor and you're being rejected it's like hey we loved

[00:03:10] you for the part but you're not good looking enough. Thanks anyway. Right that's a different

[00:03:16] level. They're literally rejecting you and sometimes it has nothing to do with you and

[00:03:20] sometimes it has everything to do with you. That's brutal man and it's also like you have

[00:03:26] to shape your whole world around these rare opportunities that are really hard to get

[00:03:33] and then you get there and they don't care at all about you so there's this mismatch of

[00:03:38] input and energy. You have to get shifts covered and drive an hour and a half to get somewhere and

[00:03:44] then look into a camera and be like Dr Pepper, heck yeah and then they go thanks for coming

[00:03:50] and that was the whole thing and you never hear back right and for you they're like oh this

[00:03:53] could be my big break and they had just had lunch and so they honestly they were like

[00:03:58] they forgot you even came in that day. So it's a really weird life, it's a really weird

[00:04:04] career and you know I had some very moderate small successes nothing that would is noteworthy

[00:04:11] as an actor but it was really satisfying but I was selling along the way to kind of pay the

[00:04:15] bills. I was doing I on TaskRabbit I found a way to cold call for a wholesale real estate

[00:04:22] company in Texas because I needed something I could do in the morning before I would go

[00:04:26] and start my day so I'd make cold calls for this real estate company just call random

[00:04:31] investors in Texas and be like hey do you want to buy this house and I've never even seen the

[00:04:35] house you know and I did that for a while and you know I had a traveling sales job where I

[00:04:42] would fly they'd fly me out Friday night I'd go to some random city for a weekend and

[00:04:47] do a sales like event and then fly back Sunday night so I could be back for my Monday

[00:04:52] morning auditions. So that was kind of sales and acting to me not even necessarily by

[00:05:00] intentionally but they sort of bled together into the same thing a lot of the skills I was

[00:05:04] developing in both of them ended up serving me in the other. Yeah interesting yeah you have to

[00:05:10] play a role either way right? Yeah that's one that's definitely it's a good way to put it and

[00:05:15] in fact so I call it the sales mask where people will play like everybody uses a specific

[00:05:23] voice when they talk to a receptionist at a hotel right when you walk into hotel lobby

[00:05:28] you're like kids shut up I swear I swear to god kids yes hello checking in under Robertson

[00:05:33] and you put on this new character right because you want them to like you you want to present

[00:05:40] as normal you don't want to bring any of your dysfunction or any of your mood so you play

[00:05:44] character and that was interesting when you're an actor trying to learn how to play other

[00:05:50] characters and then you you observe other humans playing characters all the time in their

[00:05:53] everyday life but then when it comes to sales dude I'd sit down at the sales on the sales floor

[00:05:59] and everybody around me is playing a character and I'm like I wonder if this is why you all

[00:06:05] hate your jobs and nobody buys from you right because you're phoning this in

[00:06:12] you're playing a version of yourself that you think people want to hear and that actually was

[00:06:19] one of the really major moments that made me start to realize like oh I think

[00:06:25] I think this is all wrong I think we might be doing this wrong you know what I mean

[00:06:32] what part of that well if we're if we have to act like another version of ourselves in

[00:06:38] order to present to a stranger what we're what we're telegraphing is that we believe

[00:06:43] the true version of ourselves is not good enough so we have to create a better version

[00:06:49] of ourselves that is acceptable professional enough slick enough likable enough fill in the

[00:06:54] blank so what everyone does is they have an insecurity or personal flaw that they don't like

[00:07:02] about themselves and they try to overcorrect and then they'll play this character but

[00:07:08] sales already there's so much stigma when you're against you when you're selling

[00:07:12] because most people already believe that salespeople have their self-seeking they have

[00:07:17] ulterior motives right like oh they're just out to get me they're trying to beat me they're

[00:07:22] trying to trick me and that is compounded by the fact that the person on the other end of

[00:07:27] the phone is putting on a fake voice they're literally lying even if everything they're

[00:07:34] saying is true the way they're saying it is false so here we are doubling down on this

[00:07:41] divide between salespeople and buyers and has nothing to do with the thousands of dollars

[00:07:45] worth of tactics that we've learned there are all the books we've read it's an internal issue

[00:07:51] does that make sense it makes a ton of sense yeah it's it's just you know we don't

[00:07:56] know what the world to know who are who we are or the mess of who we are i knew a very

[00:08:03] successful vp of sales and we we were always coming into work at the same time and

[00:08:07] and i would ask him how he's doing so we you know i got to know him and the answer is always

[00:08:11] super fantastic super fantastic super fantastic and you know after like a couple of years i

[00:08:16] finally was like i don't believe you like you know i mean like this i don't want to hear that

[00:08:22] and uh but he'd risen to vp of sales and had you know hundreds of people where it's just

[00:08:26] like i'm always fantastic everything's fantastic uh and um that's just not that's not real it's

[00:08:34] not authentic um so i know i want to dive deeper on that but i want to step back and kind of give

[00:08:41] folks a feel for um how the heck you went from actor to selling yeah it's a fair question i

[00:08:49] asked myself that too no because because i always had a hand in selling as i said i was always

[00:08:55] doing some of that and then i kind of hit a point 2015-ish where i was like you know i'm

[00:09:01] just gonna put acting down for a little bit see what happens see if basically like if i still love

[00:09:06] it i'll come back to it and the real answer is acting started a journey for me where i realized

[00:09:14] like i think i probably need therapy because what i'm trying to do here is get people to like me

[00:09:22] and it's costing me money you know what i mean it's costing me happiness

[00:09:27] because i i'm willing to do whatever i need to do in order to feel a feeling i'm trying to get

[00:09:33] from this other person and that was my journey right and so i i laid it down for a while went

[00:09:42] through some started some kind of you know my my sort of three-year journey of like

[00:09:48] i always say that the best sales training i ever got was three years of therapy because

[00:09:53] because i realized i'm putting on a character and even though i am very good at playing the

[00:09:58] character and i'm very convincing and i'm a very persuasive person i'm never going to actually

[00:10:04] achieve what i'm trying to achieve which is feeling comfortable in my own skin while

[00:10:08] evangelizing about something i believe in to people who i don't know it's always going to

[00:10:13] drain me one way or the other so you know i i ended up just like i needed to re-enter

[00:10:19] the world with a regular job went to starbucks did that for 10 months and the point of that

[00:10:24] starbucks job for me was like it was like acting detox you know like let me just go back and

[00:10:30] like see the same people every day do something really well and of course like i learned a ton

[00:10:36] when i was at that job starbucks is an amazing company i learned i learned a lot of things

[00:10:42] that i still you know implemented in my own regular life and in my own business

[00:10:47] so tell me about i want to get to how you became a vps sales at an msp but there was i

[00:10:52] think there was a stop in between where you were working for a funding company that's right

[00:10:57] i left starbucks got a job at a company selling working capital and that was sort of

[00:11:03] my re-entry back into a full-time sales role and hundred dollars a day there was a lot of

[00:11:10] inbound leads but there was a lot of phone numbers to call too you know it was like that's

[00:11:15] where i learned how to use salesforce there's 20 30 sales guys i think there was 50 sales guys

[00:11:20] when i left and you know that was the first time i saw people making they they called

[00:11:26] it grown man money um but these are i saw a guy make 30 grand a month you know in commission

[00:11:33] just killed doing the exact same thing i was doing same phone same salesforce

[00:11:38] same product wow and then there's this massive discrepancy of what some people aren't some

[00:11:43] people can't even do it and they they get fired and some people can so uh yeah i'm

[00:11:49] cutting my teeth making the dials that's where i really learned how to hold my own

[00:11:52] cold calling hundred dollars a day is really good life training now one thing i want to

[00:11:57] say that's interesting about you in my opinion brian i've made the hundred dollars a day

[00:12:03] made the hundred dollars a day and then i've hired people and coached people to make them

[00:12:07] and interview people and of course you know are you willing to make it is usually the question

[00:12:11] and every once in a while i have these people like i love making cold calls like no you don't

[00:12:15] you don't have to love making cold calls um and uh but my point is even the people

[00:12:21] that think they want to do it avoid it it's the worst part right that kind of thing

[00:12:26] um and uh and so it's interesting it's tough in my opinion right it's it's one of you know

[00:12:32] there's easier aspects to sales maybe more more technical or more nuanced more skillful

[00:12:39] but uh you know the you know it's usually seen as where you get foot in the door right is

[00:12:43] making cold calls but the attrition rate is super high because people can't take it i think

[00:12:49] it's really interesting that you know the way you framed it is they're not judging you

[00:12:55] like when you're an actor they were judging you now they're judging a product yeah i think if

[00:12:58] you'd have told me that back when i was making 100 calls today it made my life a lot

[00:13:03] a lot better instead of going i'm a failure especially what he mentioned when there's other

[00:13:08] folks who are using the same phone on the same list and they're getting you know five

[00:13:13] times the results or 10 times the results yeah there's a guy you know in the same bullpen as

[00:13:19] you making as much money as a surgeon cold calling strangers and yeah i think i think that really

[00:13:26] the actor the actor journey is what set me free in the sales journey was because i wasn't born

[00:13:33] inherently with thick skin the truth is that i actually don't even really believe in thick skin

[00:13:39] like i think it's the wrong way to think of it i i don't think we want to be resistant to

[00:13:44] rejection we need to be resilient to rejection and the difference between resistance and resilience

[00:13:50] is resistance holds its shape in the shape in response to pressure but resilience bends out of

[00:13:57] shape but then comes back so if somebody hurts your feelings just be hurt but then come back

[00:14:05] if you're sad because you lost a sale be sad and then come back don't super fantastic your way

[00:14:11] through it because you'll break you will eventually break or said another way you will retreat further

[00:14:17] and further into that character in order to maintain because you don't actually have the

[00:14:22] skills to emotionally cope with the job so you're bullshitting it i love that so i realized

[00:14:28] if i'm just if i can stay for lack of a better word if i can stay tender in this role

[00:14:34] a regular human that can keep me empathetic i can keep listening and then when somebody says

[00:14:40] something really cruel to me on the phone i could just go wow that was a really cruel and

[00:14:44] uncalled for thing for them to say i love that because first of all let's change the way people

[00:14:50] think about salespeople because anybody that's tried to do it well you know you're battling

[00:14:54] an uphill battle from the preconceived notions and then i love the tender right i want to be

[00:15:00] real i want to be myself and um using your thick skin analogy i remember feeling like i had

[00:15:05] to build up a callus right so that i could have thicker skin and pretend like it didn't hurt

[00:15:13] and pretend that i didn't care when i really did care when i was emotionally invested

[00:15:17] whatever you know when i was just like how how could i make 100 dials you know today

[00:15:23] and yesterday and the day before and still have nothing to show for it and you know i

[00:15:27] got this one on the phone and then i thought i had them and i didn't you know like the

[00:15:32] reality is that really was crushing uh but i love being tender staying there because otherwise

[00:15:39] i think if you develop that callus then um you may not look at the hard truth which is you

[00:15:45] don't have the tools to deal with and with the callus comes resentment you will begin to

[00:15:50] resent the prospect so the prospect capital p prospect becomes your villain and you become

[00:15:58] the hero and the sale is there they're the thing you have to overcome in order for you to win

[00:16:05] enter the what i call the adversarial sales complex if we think we're losing because we

[00:16:11] call somebody who wasn't interested that means we think we're winning when we call somebody

[00:16:16] who is interested but that means that the prospect has to lose when we win so we're

[00:16:23] trying to conquer this person instead of helping them right so the callus not only does it

[00:16:31] in my mind is it false strength it's fake strength it's cowardice said more bluntly

[00:16:41] but it also ends up pivoting you to the wrong side of the table in a negotiation

[00:16:47] because if a prospect is the one who's supposed to be in the emotional state in the child state

[00:16:53] and we're supposed to be in the rational adult state who can shepherd them through the problem

[00:16:58] that they don't know how to solve into the land of euphoric resolution that's our job

[00:17:05] we're supposed to be guides as donald miller would put it right we're the guide the

[00:17:09] customer is the hero we're yoda they're luke that's the job and if you insist on being the

[00:17:16] hero you shouldn't be in sales yeah i couldn't agree more i love that if you insist on being

[00:17:23] the hero you shouldn't be in sales make the customer the hero because they are because

[00:17:26] their this their life is a movie about them not about you right so best case you're

[00:17:32] you want to be in a chapter where you're the person who gives them the unique insight

[00:17:36] that helps them then conquer their foe that's your role in that movie you know yeah and we

[00:17:43] oftentimes we come in with we make our product the hero our company the hero so we cold call

[00:17:48] and go hey listen can i get a minute to want to talk to you about it listen i was born

[00:17:51] in log cabin and my company is so great and this is how i'm changing the universe and this

[00:17:55] is how we're disrupting the industry like nobody cares no why should they care about you

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[00:19:08] so i want to go deeper what we're talking about before i do i kind of want to set everybody

[00:19:12] up with your personal story i want to kind of help them understand the arc that i found

[00:19:16] interesting from you know there's a lot of stops in between but high level reactor to

[00:19:21] selling to support your acting habit to you know selling and being incredibly successful

[00:19:27] right highest caller um you know setting records at this funding group and then how the heck did

[00:19:33] you end up at an msp and and also right if i understand you were at this funding company

[00:19:40] a cold caller which is definitely the lowest yeah person on the totem pole to uh you know

[00:19:47] you rose to be like a vp of sales at an msp and help them grow faster than in my opinion

[00:19:53] almost any msp actually does grow yeah so how how did that happen yeah i mean it was um

[00:20:02] it was serendipitous in some ways like the true story is probably not as exciting as as

[00:20:08] the bullets make it sound but you know i was at the sales company i was at the funding company

[00:20:14] and i i had a you know my wife and i talked a lot about the job and the truth was that i was

[00:20:23] not in love with the product i was selling i understood its value to a specific person

[00:20:27] but oftentimes i felt like the people who ended up buying it i felt like didn't really

[00:20:33] shouldn't have bought it it was very expensive working capital and oftentimes it ended up in

[00:20:39] this predatory cycle now that wasn't my fault that wasn't anybody's fault but

[00:20:43] i just didn't well my i feel like i could be doing having a more positive impact

[00:20:48] than selling this particular product so i knew i wanted to get into tech i was interested in

[00:20:53] potentially in sass i really hate like sass bro sales culture but i'm like i know i want

[00:20:59] to make more money basically so i wrote on a piece of paper everything i wanted in the job

[00:21:05] i've never told this story before but everything i wanted and it was like i want to work from home

[00:21:10] and this was 2017 so back then everybody everybody thought that that was impossible

[00:21:16] you know they were like there's no way you can be productive from home so i said i want to

[00:21:21] work from home i said how much money i wanted to make i wanted to work in tech i wanted to

[00:21:26] be more or less autonomous and i wanted to have salespeople under me that i could sort of

[00:21:31] manage train and support so i just wrote that on a piece of paper and i stuck it to the outside

[00:21:37] of my fridge and i would just say out loud every time i looked at it i'm gonna have this job

[00:21:42] and i'm not kidding two weeks later i met the msp i worked for and it was a friend of my

[00:21:50] wife who she had known from years before and she just had one of those prophetic

[00:21:56] you know premonitions of like i wonder if you should talk to this guy

[00:21:59] texted him out of the blue and he was like yeah my vp of sales just quit

[00:22:05] so i called him we talked for 45 minutes and he was like i can't really afford you yet but let's

[00:22:09] keep talking and then like a week later he was like actually i just got to hire you right now

[00:22:13] so we met at starbucks at like six in the morning on a tuesday or something like that

[00:22:18] and i told him he's like okay how would you sell this product and i explained to him

[00:22:24] i had my philosophy on sales ecf engage consult fulfill and i drew him a funnel on a napkin i'm

[00:22:29] like this is how i'm going to do it and i'm gonna i'm gonna create process for how we engage how

[00:22:34] we consult and how we fulfill i even know what an msp was he explained outsourced it all you

[00:22:42] know all things it if it has a switch we can manage it we're very white glove he said a lot

[00:22:46] of the same things that every msp says but i was like okay great and what is voip

[00:22:51] although it was this and okay and what is cloud actually you know literally just no product knowledge

[00:22:57] so yeah i started it went in on the first day on a whiteboard i wrote ecf on the whiteboard i

[00:23:02] was like hey um i'm gonna i'm gonna burn everything we've done down for sales take

[00:23:07] all your prices off the website fix this stop doing this stop saying this this is how we say

[00:23:12] this now and i just came in like donkihote style like this is how it's happening and

[00:23:17] because that's what they wanted me to do right they were like we need process

[00:23:21] so i started with one sales guy to sort of prove the concept and he was actually an it director

[00:23:28] who had a very tragic like health issue and he lost 90 of his site in a couple of months

[00:23:35] he's 29 years old so he couldn't do his it job anymore because he was managing a network

[00:23:40] 60 users 20 servers and so he was like can i be useful somewhere can i learn how to sell

[00:23:46] wow and this guy had zero sales experience man like literally zero yeah and i was like sure

[00:23:55] so i walked him through the same what was the beginning of now what is the feel good close

[00:24:00] training it's like the first thing we did as a word exercise word association i know this is a

[00:24:06] sidebar but i used to do this with every live sales training and i don't do it anymore

[00:24:11] because i feel like people see it coming now for me but i would do i would like word association

[00:24:16] so i write a word on the whiteboard and then they have three minutes stream of consciousness

[00:24:20] to write one to three word phrases that come to mind and so for the first minute or two

[00:24:25] they write what they think you want to hear and then when they run out of ideas they

[00:24:29] start writing what they really think so it's like okay word association with salesperson

[00:24:35] and it's like never give up high drive slick nice car pushy oh dishonest self-seeking

[00:24:43] greedy and then you find all these things so i would do that i've done that every time i've

[00:24:49] ever done that people look at the paper and they almost cry because they realize they're

[00:24:54] carrying these toxic associations with the thing that they're trying to turn themselves into

[00:25:01] hmm so they're trying to make themselves a salesperson but they don't even like salespeople

[00:25:07] they assume they associate all these terrible things with it right and so if you don't

[00:25:14] if you don't heal from those perspectives then your version of sales will just be

[00:25:21] over correcting from the things you're trying to avoid which means your negative

[00:25:26] sales experiences are still dictating your sales behavior it's just the antithesis of

[00:25:32] the sales behavior you're trying to hit which means we end up being instead of pushy

[00:25:36] we end up being weak and limp and we do there's no urgency and no follow-up because we're so

[00:25:42] afraid of being this thing that we despise right so anyway i started training him on that

[00:25:49] he hit the phones hundred dollars a day on his uh on his first on his first friday so his fifth

[00:25:55] day we booked a consultation it was the following thursday we went in we we billed like four

[00:26:00] hundred dollars to it was pull a cable there was some random little project but i just wanted

[00:26:05] him to get a win so he made money in first two weeks for us wow and then i then i scaled

[00:26:11] it up and i had five people hundred dollars a day and it was off to the races i love the

[00:26:17] story though right because um a couple things that stood out right i feel like everybody raises

[00:26:25] their children to tell you know you need to tell the truth you need to be a good person

[00:26:29] and tell the truth or i mean unless you're talking to a salesperson then you can tell

[00:26:36] them a lie or if you are a salesperson maybe and then if you do get into sales

[00:26:40] then you have this conflict because you're you know the dishonest other part that they're

[00:26:43] carrying around they feel like they need to you know um even if they're not outright lying

[00:26:48] they're bending the truth they're stretching when something will be available they're just

[00:26:52] you know they're carrying around this baggage and to let that go and realize you don't have to

[00:26:56] do that is a huge gift uh to anybody that's doing that and i know most of the audience

[00:27:04] here is owners of msp is running their own and you know they don't they don't like the

[00:27:10] way they sell is like oh i don't sell like salespeople i you know i sell my way um and i

[00:27:15] think it's because you have this relationship with sales and sales people that's that's toxic

[00:27:20] at best um and i love that you just happen to give be able to have the gift of starting

[00:27:26] with um that individual that couldn't manage a network anymore so that's that's awesome

[00:27:35] super super motivated motivated i'm sure yeah it was cool and then he ended up you know

[00:27:40] crushing it he booked four to eight on-site consultations a month at 100 dials a day and i

[00:27:46] close 57 percent of them that's crazy and we were just jordan and pippen we just crushed

[00:27:53] and did it for three years you know got to two million in ar or an ar about three years

[00:27:59] yes that that's the other thing guys i want to make i want to get into empathy and get

[00:28:03] into the parts i think that that make this even more interesting but if you're listening

[00:28:08] right no experience so i think there's a couple things that i know i was an osp and i was like

[00:28:14] you've got to be an msp you've got to be super technical to sell you got to really understand

[00:28:19] the product line you know and i think if you look at it if you bring somebody in you're

[00:28:23] looking for some of those well you know i want like a sales guy but they need to have like a

[00:28:28] you know bs in computer science or need to have worked in the tech field or

[00:28:34] uh i'm gonna bring them in and teach them like put them at every vendor and teach them the entire

[00:28:38] product line why why would we do that right and and so what i love about your story and what

[00:28:46] what you did brian your your is you took him you went in there with no knowledge you didn't

[00:28:50] know what an msp was or cloud or void for any of those things and almost no msp goes from

[00:28:57] 700k to two million in three years let alone if i understand right there was no marketing

[00:29:03] budget no events right it was it was you and a person and if i understand it if you weren't

[00:29:10] successful with that one you weren't getting the second or third or fourth

[00:29:14] right you had to grow you had to earn your your your right to hire essentially yeah it was

[00:29:21] it was um this really blows my mind how uh so over a lot of msp owners your audience do

[00:29:29] you get a lot of salespeople or is it mostly owners it's mostly you know there could be this

[00:29:33] but it's mostly um you know owners um and i say that it could be you know there's sometimes a

[00:29:40] sometimes it's a partner that is more sales driven sometimes there's a one that isn't but

[00:29:44] um and i'd love to hear from you guys in the in the comments as as you're

[00:29:48] you know listening wherever you are but um most of the ones i hear from they are

[00:29:53] uh some of them are small some of them are large but i would say more common it's uh they hit the

[00:30:00] wall because they um they're the only salesperson and i personally know so many um there's been

[00:30:08] some that just were in the same city as me and they're like you you built a team that

[00:30:12] that made cold calls and did outreach and did that and it worked and you scaled it teach

[00:30:15] me and i was like you know i don't know how to say this but no right you just wanted like

[00:30:20] a silver bullet and and i can't i can't spend half an afternoon with you and then you're just

[00:30:25] going to go become a magical vp of sales um and if i impacted it was like well i want them to

[00:30:31] to source the business and close it i want them to do this i want it you know like

[00:30:35] completely unrealistic expectations so i feel like that there are basically the dividing

[00:30:40] line or the folks that are fortunate enough to get to the point where they get to eight

[00:30:44] to 12 you know employees and the owner is the salesperson and then there's this giant gap that

[00:30:51] most never get past because they they don't they don't hire a vp of sales but they never even

[00:30:57] get one good salesperson um and i don't blame the salesperson i think everything is set up

[00:31:04] generally for failure expectations their crm the data the you know the i mean i'm the same

[00:31:10] gentleman i was talking to he has a very high operational maturity msp that is millions and

[00:31:18] millions of revenue and growing and well regarded and referrals and all these things

[00:31:23] and the same person said i'm just going to hire them and they're just going to go to like

[00:31:26] business after hours and you know just i don't know they'll just get the yellow pages or i

[00:31:34] don't know like the modern equivalent make phone calls uh and um you know there was no

[00:31:40] there's no plan no training no support uh to walk anybody into yeah what you're like if you run an

[00:31:47] msp and you want somebody with technical background who can find business and close

[00:31:51] business my question is what the hell do they need you for exactly exactly what are you doing

[00:31:58] they should just go start a rival msp and smoke you that's right and they have or they will

[00:32:04] it was exactly they probably already have because the word you're looking for is not

[00:32:07] salesperson it's entrepreneur somebody who can take blank space and make money out of nothing

[00:32:14] and who understands your whole product line they should have 49 percent of your business

[00:32:20] that's called a business development partner right so if you expect a salesperson to be

[00:32:25] successful your job is to make the salesperson successful right that's your new full-time job

[00:32:31] equip them to be successful right because they're doing if you knew how to do their job you

[00:32:37] wouldn't have hired them right but you should treat your salespeople like your business and

[00:32:41] your retirement depends on them because it does but this front of house back of house argument

[00:32:49] right that's a restaurant term from back in my actor days like the kitchen always blames the

[00:32:53] waiters for putting in the orders wrong and the waiters blame the kitchen for putting it out

[00:32:56] slow it's like you guys no no we're trying to get dinner to a bunch of people fast they

[00:33:04] paid a lot of money for it it does not produce faster better quality dinners for us to be blaming

[00:33:12] each other when a mistake happens your job is not to be right your job is to help someone

[00:33:18] the end i love that so in an msp if you're hiring a salesperson even if you've got a

[00:33:24] partner they've got some points they're on the cap table who's right is not important

[00:33:30] what's important is you find more businesses who are in desperate need of your help

[00:33:35] and you find a way an economical way to support them that's the job that's right and if you're

[00:33:41] really a mission-driven msp then you should not be pointing fingers internally because that's

[00:33:46] clearly a sign of insecurity and ego and if you're the guy who's always pointing fingers

[00:33:50] and every time you're in a room there's a mistake and you're pointing at someone you're

[00:33:53] probably the problem i love that right somebody listening you needed to hear that pay attention

[00:34:00] if my piece of advice that people hate hearing is there's only one common denominator in every

[00:34:09] problem in your life it's you i love that and that should be very empowering to you because

[00:34:16] many of us feel powerless when there's something that we we have no control over that's causing

[00:34:20] our demise like the market or inflation or saturation or casaya we all have we'll blame

[00:34:27] somebody right right dude there's no city too saturated you heard me i'm gonna go on the record

[00:34:34] okay i don't mean to sound arrogant but i guarantee you if i joined an msp right now

[00:34:38] in new york city i'd have linear positive organic growth it's just not such a thing as

[00:34:44] too saturated not it just isn't not an industry that changes this fast with a market by the

[00:34:50] way that's continuing to increase not only because there's more and more businesses but

[00:34:54] a higher portion of the smb market is relying on msp's than ever before and they expect it to

[00:34:58] continue to increase the market is growing so just maintaining market share you should be

[00:35:03] getting organic growth right yeah the city is not not your problem uh millennials are not your

[00:35:11] problem casaya is not your problem cyber insurance starting to offer free um xtr tools

[00:35:19] is not your problem i'm gonna say something that's gonna make me sound like a jerk but i was on one

[00:35:26] of the big forums the other day and of these msp's and i had been a while i go on there and

[00:35:34] i post answers to people's sales questions pretty frequently and great forum i really like

[00:35:39] it but i was reading all these posts in the subjects lines one of them was like throwing in

[00:35:44] the towel and the other one was like you know i've had enough and i'm going in and reading this post

[00:35:52] and i remember one of them was a guy i had met with him he talked to me about joining my program

[00:35:58] we talked about the budget the the price and the time commit and he was fine with all of

[00:36:02] that or he acknowledged that he was fine with that i showed him the presentation

[00:36:06] i said give me your honest feedback he said this sounds like what i'm looking for

[00:36:09] this is the this you're teaching all the skills i don't have but it was right around christmas so

[00:36:14] we scheduled a follow-up call he he ghosts me on the follow-up call hey you around did you fall

[00:36:21] in whatever i said no answer never never took spoke to me again and now three months four

[00:36:27] months later he's i'm giving i'm throwing in the towel talking about how hard it is to sell

[00:36:33] this

[00:36:33] forum and i'm sitting here thinking why is everyone whining so bad about their business

[00:36:43] it's like guys there are options there are options the thing is they're all on the other

[00:36:49] side of a big old humble pie yeah and if you're not willing to eat that pie you're not going

[00:36:55] to get any of those results so the problem here is you and you should be encouraged because

[00:37:00] you are the only thing you have any control over yeah i could i could whine about losing weight

[00:37:05] i could whine about getting in shape i can whine about not closing more deals

[00:37:11] yeah it doesn't make any any difference exactly like there there is a way out and

[00:37:17] and i don't mean to belittle how hard this industry is so as i said i know this is going

[00:37:22] to you could probably cut this together to make me sound like a villain but uh it's not

[00:37:27] that i'm incredibly empathetic for the journey the struggles of growing an msp

[00:37:31] and i don't mean to sound arrogant to say like i'm not trying to sound like i'm bulletproof or

[00:37:36] anything anything like that but my point is be resilient feel the feelings and then snap back

[00:37:43] into place and go okay what do i need to do because feelings are facts the fact that meaning

[00:37:47] the fact that you felt feelings is a fact right it's okay you're discouraged that's what's

[00:37:52] happening right now so right now you have you're deflated and you're discouraged

[00:37:57] but don't now start pointing the finger at every other person around you and say you're the

[00:38:03] reason i don't have what i want because it's you're never going to get what you want

[00:38:08] yeah if you're waiting on other people to change for you yeah then the truth is you

[00:38:13] should just go get a job as a cto you'd probably make more money and be a lot happier

[00:38:17] yeah i love that so tell me about your position on empathy right in sales right you're

[00:38:26] you're uh you're used to that is it's just not what most people think and when we talked a

[00:38:32] little earlier it's one thing i loved you know is is don't be the average salesperson

[00:38:37] not only the things we were talking about take responsibility but empathy and i think

[00:38:41] most people empathy and sales don't go together right you're playing a role you're

[00:38:45] you're super fantastic like well how do you see empathy fitting in empathy true empathy comes on

[00:38:51] the other side of a lot of inner work you know um i think there's a certain emotional

[00:38:58] intelligence that will really really serve you in business in general but especially in sales

[00:39:07] and if emotional intelligence has always been sort of

[00:39:10] um something that you avoid it wouldn't surprise me if you have a hard time converting

[00:39:17] coal leads you know anybody can close a referral by the way

[00:39:23] getting closing nine out of ten of your inbound referrals is not impressive

[00:39:27] that's that's industry standard that just means you have a brick and mortar right

[00:39:32] that's not sales that's order taking and i'm happy for you but that's not sales that does

[00:39:37] not mean you know how to sell right it means you know how to take orders from people who

[00:39:40] are coming to you on a silver platter but empathy is about in business is about actually

[00:39:48] understanding and valuing another person's needs even at times to the detriment of your own

[00:39:55] personal gain so finding the no is a really important pillar of the feel-good close if

[00:40:02] somebody's not a good fit we want to find out right away and tell them as early as possible

[00:40:08] but brian that goes against all the normal crappy sales training right right the normal

[00:40:14] sales training is talk them into being a yes right and create create the need like creating

[00:40:20] need is a classic old school carnegie or sandler like idea walk up to somebody's door

[00:40:25] and say excuse me ma'am have you ever experienced this and you create the need

[00:40:28] and then you fill the need and then you place the order that that that is a pre-internet idea

[00:40:36] because you are not creating need for somebody who has access to the world wide web they know

[00:40:40] what they need they don't understand the nuances of what the need is you know what i mean but

[00:40:47] they don't understand how managed services actually are delivered but they know if they

[00:40:51] need you or they don't need you so finding the no is about okay is do you have there's you

[00:41:02] know budget authority need and timing or whatever your qualifiers are like are you actually in a

[00:41:06] position to purchase and make a invest in a partnership with somebody like me but also is

[00:41:11] the thing i do going to help you achieve the thing you're trying to achieve that's a yes or

[00:41:17] no question for me yeah and sometimes it's not yeah that's the truth right it's inconvenient

[00:41:24] truth but it's an inconvenient truth yeah um you'll make way more money in your career

[00:41:30] by selling to the right fits and letting the wrong fits walk away plus you'll feel a lot better

[00:41:35] about it but finding the no also can be over corrected and this this i see a lot of rhetoric

[00:41:42] as well on the msp forums is people say like present price on the first call and if they

[00:41:49] think it's too expensive they're not the right customer right it's like no that is you

[00:41:54] abdicating your role as a salesperson they of course they think it's too expensive they don't

[00:42:01] even know what it is right now you're speaking my language as an msp that's what i did and

[00:42:09] only few don't do this right i call it show up and throw up there's probably some other

[00:42:14] acronym but you just you just spew stuff like you know in the backup in the art industry

[00:42:19] yeah there's a mutability yeah we can do uh version this and that yeah we can test daily

[00:42:24] weekly month but i i literally talked to an msp recently he's like i went and told the prospect

[00:42:29] about immutability i'm like all they heard was flux capacitor like it makes no sense to them

[00:42:35] and even if they know what that term means how does that apply how does that actually make a

[00:42:42] difference in their world or in their life you've you couldn't have done worse if you tried

[00:42:47] and i think i told him something like that which he was quite shocked but yeah why does

[00:42:51] it that uh we always show up and just feel like we're gonna deliver this jargon

[00:42:58] and you know xdr this and mdr that and you need super advanced next gen something with a

[00:43:04] you know dr in it or whatever it is and why didn't they buy it and everybody says this is

[00:43:10] what's so fascinating about this point because everybody says we're the jargon free it company

[00:43:16] because they all know this talk track that we're on right now everybody knows it don't

[00:43:20] be too jargony that was like revolutionary in 2010 right like oh what if we stopped being jargony

[00:43:27] so now everybody says we're not the jargony company but then what happens is they get on a

[00:43:31] sales call the prospect is sitting there looking at them this well of anxiety starts

[00:43:36] bubbling inside of them because they have no freaking clue what to say or do so you go

[00:43:40] to the groove that's the most worn in your brain which is your technical expertise

[00:43:43] so you start filling airspace with that information and it's because you had no plan

[00:43:49] so you go in saying i'm not going to be jargony but then all of a sudden you might even and

[00:43:53] somebody listening has probably done this all of a sudden you you hear yourself talking and

[00:43:58] you go i've been talking for four minutes and i don't even remember the question bad sign

[00:44:04] you know what i would call what's missing oftentimes is what i call an urgency mechanism

[00:44:09] so when you're trying to create a sale when you're structuring a deal with someone

[00:44:14] we need to figure out what's the timing is there urgency and if there is or isn't if

[00:44:18] there's a pain we need to put an urgency underneath the pain now the default one is fud

[00:44:24] fear uncertainty and doubt right like if you don't buy from me right now you're going to get

[00:44:28] hacked and everybody's going to die that's essentially what most of you are doing and

[00:44:34] you tell me that you're not but you are you call it education but it's fud many people say

[00:44:39] i'm not going to be this slimy fear-based salesperson but then they end up doing it

[00:44:43] anyway because they have no urgency mechanism or they overcorrect as we said before they so

[00:44:48] desperately don't want to be a fud salesperson that they have no urgency mechanism so they

[00:44:53] just go well listen you know i just the whole point of this is just to get to know each other

[00:44:57] yeah no it isn't you're lying yeah you're not just reading meeting random strangers this

[00:45:03] is not a platonic date the whole point of this is to make a sale so just stop lying

[00:45:09] and be selling i love that just sell like there's a whole i'm not going to say the name but there's

[00:45:15] a big sales philosophy out there where they set up first time appointments and the first time

[00:45:19] appointment is all about getting on the phone with a ceo of an msp and so and so has been

[00:45:24] in the industry 25 years and they've got lots of insights for you and then they just

[00:45:27] talk and talk and talk and data dump about all their crap and then they leave thinking wow

[00:45:33] what a great conversation and they do that for that same person for two years before they buy

[00:45:37] anything because there's no urgency mechanism well you mentioned the word empathy earlier

[00:45:43] my relationship with empathy is i figured out how to make empathy my urgency mechanism tell

[00:45:50] me how we do that now now you're speaking my language well instead of saying so let's say

[00:45:56] i'm on a call with a prospect and they say well we need an it company and i go okay well

[00:46:00] tell me what you mean by that why do you need an it company well because we had one before

[00:46:06] we had some contract um whatever we didn't agree on a couple of things so we let that service

[00:46:12] lapse that was a few months ago we can still call them if we need them but as of right now we're

[00:46:16] not technically being managed now the fud salesperson is going to go through the impact funnel

[00:46:21] and say what is that costing your business oh my god what a stupid question right

[00:46:28] um instead i'm going to say something like that sounds frustrating that's it

[00:46:37] because i'm putting myself in their shoes going oh my god you had a wait so you had a partner

[00:46:41] and you didn't agree on terms what do you mean yeah and now you're not being managed at all

[00:46:45] okay it sounds like obviously there was some frustration in there

[00:46:50] so i mean what's the plan and i'm just putting myself in their shoes what are they trying to

[00:46:55] achieve and if they go i don't really have a plan and blah blah blah we've got time

[00:47:01] you're you know i'm just meeting with a few people and we can ask some clarifying questions

[00:47:05] like okay so just so i'm clear if this were to happen how would you respond or what's an ideal

[00:47:11] situation that you guys are trying to get in your partnership but if you if someone feels

[00:47:15] seen they want to continue their relationship with you if someone feels understood they're

[00:47:23] more likely to keep talking if you're trying to use fud to extract insights from someone

[00:47:32] you're going to get insights that are filtered through what i call the buyer's process

[00:47:37] in short if you're trying to extract information from them they're going to give you lies

[00:47:43] because they feel you extracting but there's two types of relationships

[00:47:48] extractive and collaborative that's it an extractive relationship the analogy i use is

[00:47:54] like a mine you buy a plot of land and you start taking resources from it and eventually

[00:48:00] all the resources are gone what's left is a hollow shell and then you have to go buy another plot

[00:48:06] of land to get more value a collaborative relationship is like a farm you plant things

[00:48:12] on it and nurture those seeds and resource those seeds and eventually you'll get a harvest

[00:48:17] which is exponentially greater than all the efforts you had to put into it because you're

[00:48:22] willing to take the time to collaborate and the land is worth more than it was before you

[00:48:27] got it but if you're extracting from people you have to keep going from person to person

[00:48:34] you get tons of churn tons of fud yeah you make really high closing rates and you sell a bunch of

[00:48:40] big onboarding projects and you you trick them into 400 a seat but now what now you have to

[00:48:47] keep them afraid to keep the relationship alive you know yeah there's no good msp that i've

[00:48:51] met that wants that right and i think that's the struggle what you said earlier really hit

[00:48:56] home where they you're over correct like they're not most people and i think in the msp aren't

[00:49:01] natural at sales and they and i think most of us stepping outside of msp you go do you want

[00:49:06] a sales guy to call you the answer is no like a sales guy no that sounds horrible like sales

[00:49:12] guys are bad right so we have this this this uh head trash telling us we don't want to be

[00:49:19] act smell like a salesperson and um and then we're all of a sudden in it and so um then you

[00:49:27] over correct like you said then you're i can't tell me people like i go to business after hours

[00:49:32] and i just get to know people it's all about building the relationships um or like you said

[00:49:36] there are some that they're like well we close what i when i know you're not growing is

[00:49:40] when you tell me your close rate on referrals that's right because it's super high which is

[00:49:45] great but you're getting like a few a year you know like there's nothing really going on

[00:49:52] um and so my point is i think this is where we want to get we want to be who we are

[00:49:58] at least i'll speak for myself i want to be me i just want to have a candid conversation

[00:50:04] many times that means it's not the right fit it's not the right time it's not the right

[00:50:08] season that's faster we both figure that out the better in a good way and and you you know you have

[00:50:15] to show up you have to be invested you have to ask questions sometimes that means you still get

[00:50:20] your feelings hurt you still are tender uh but this is this is how i want to and i think most

[00:50:25] msp's they want to do this because this is going to lead to a relationship like your analogy

[00:50:31] a farm where they're going to trust you they're going to call you they're going to talk they're

[00:50:36] going to be open to talking about things and that's what most of the good msp's that's what

[00:50:40] they want and if you force it down their throat you know even if you do trick them into winning

[00:50:46] a deal at 400 seed or whatever the metric is for you that very short-term thinking

[00:50:53] you're thinking what can i take to get what i want and you didn't know you were thinking

[00:51:00] that you wouldn't have said it you wouldn't have articulated it that way but that is

[00:51:04] actually the spirit in which you are growing your business so that's why that's i mean all

[00:51:09] of this we're talking about is why i developed something and called it the feel good close

[00:51:15] because if sales doesn't feel good to both the buyer and the seller you're doing it wrong

[00:51:21] i love that with all the nuances that to your point nobody wants to hear from a salesperson

[00:51:27] but the reason is that a salesperson's true job is to is to nobly and empathetically offer someone

[00:51:36] the opportunity to face a problem that they're currently avoiding thinking about

[00:51:42] a problem that they deep down know they have but they don't feel the strength the courage

[00:51:47] the energy to face it and resolve it well let me let me make this analogy see if you

[00:51:51] agree or not brian people perceive they don't want to talk to the salesperson

[00:51:57] but you put them with the engineers right and maybe they don't want to speak acronyms and

[00:52:04] all that but all of a sudden they let their guard down right they'll just tell them they'll

[00:52:08] tell the things and that's what i've noticed right if you if you if your title even says

[00:52:14] sales they're they're kind of more guarded but when your title is you know technical

[00:52:19] support or engineer this or that project management any of those things it's like oh

[00:52:24] well here's my problems here's what i need to get solved because and my assumption is there's

[00:52:30] some trust there that they're actually not trying to hit a number talk me into something

[00:52:35] upsell me cross sell me whatever it is i can these are the people that actually do the things

[00:52:40] i kind of think like you know you go to your doctor you tell them what's wrong

[00:52:45] whatever they tell you hopefully you you take action you you take that pill you do whatever

[00:52:50] they tell you and i feel like that's similar when they are talking to the engineer or the

[00:52:55] project manager or somebody on that side they will tell them truth and there's a candy

[00:53:02] conversation so why do we create these fake walls and fake personas where we're not who

[00:53:08] where we are we're not really who we are they're not really who they are yeah um why

[00:53:13] can't we you know if i had a pattern after why can't i sell more like uh my and the other thing

[00:53:20] is the without knowing it some of my technical support engineers are the best salespeople

[00:53:26] and they're not commissioned or anything like that i just mean that they they talk they ask

[00:53:29] questions they diagnose and sometimes they're like you know this other thing that we have

[00:53:34] you know might suit you better oh yeah i'll help somebody else give you the pricing

[00:53:38] you know they're not even trying but there's so many things like that that just happen

[00:53:42] organically because they're not motivated in that way they're just motivated in how can i help you

[00:53:48] right so yeah i mean i completely agree oftentimes here's the context though i think to set up this

[00:53:55] comparison because when they're talking to an engineer or an internal person that means

[00:54:01] usually a relationship is already established of some kind right so what's selling here's

[00:54:07] here's what selling actually is selling is not getting a deal done the craft of sales is navigating

[00:54:16] a new or budding relationship where everyone has secret conflicting motives

[00:54:23] and then aligning them all into a singular agreement where everyone wins that is selling

[00:54:30] which means our job is to manage psychology of people who are coming in with preconceptions

[00:54:38] about everyone else in the room everyone is coming in already thinking of the other party

[00:54:44] as the villain the buyer comes in and goes hey whatever they say don't give them our budget

[00:54:48] don't tell them about this thing and for god's sake don't tell them alan's about to quit

[00:54:52] yeah yeah and this guy goes don't give him the price don't tell him about the 36 month

[00:54:56] tell him about the 36 month agreement yet until you've twisted the knife and found the pain

[00:55:00] and for god's sake don't tell them we had an outage last month that's right

[00:55:04] it sounds exactly like the msp sales process and so a salesperson's true job is to be a

[00:55:11] conductor of all these feelings thoughts preconceptions and needs there's a solution

[00:55:17] in the room and a product in the room but they're afraid of each other so our job

[00:55:21] is to create an opportunity where everybody can piece by piece card by card step by step

[00:55:27] lay down their guards enough to give an accurate representation of the needs so that then we can

[00:55:33] then decide if a deal can be structured that's my job right my job is not to keep their

[00:55:42] servers running this is not my job that's the i miss that's the technician's job so to say

[00:55:48] that an engineer is oftentimes the best salesperson i don't necessarily disagree with

[00:55:53] that but i want to say to the msp listening that is not sales that's order taking because

[00:55:59] what you're forgetting is you've already established enough of a trust and a

[00:56:03] preconception that they're even willing to talk to your freaking engineer that they're

[00:56:07] even willing to set up any of this is because the salesperson forged that first yes you see

[00:56:15] what i mean like the salesperson has to plow brand new ground and then plant seeds in water

[00:56:21] and then the engineers come in and just water and pick the flowers and they go oh great i

[00:56:26] made a sale you didn't make a sale you solved the problem for a relationship that was already

[00:56:30] set up for that so that's a salesperson's job and that's why i firmly believe sales

[00:56:36] is an inherently noble profession you are helping people face fears that they're afraid

[00:56:42] of facing and getting them to resolve them you're getting them to take action i've been called a

[00:56:48] sales therapist many times in my career because we have to get them to realize hey you guys have

[00:56:55] no backups you have no plan your entire business is built around this system that you don't even

[00:57:01] understand and you haven't had a good msp in three years your msp is terrible but the reason

[00:57:06] your msp is terrible is that you keep hiring the cheapest msp this is your third time in a

[00:57:11] row and somebody has to help you understand that you can't you can't think of it in the same way

[00:57:17] anymore so now this problem of their perception of value of it in general that's the problem

[00:57:24] the downtime isn't the problem the customer service isn't the problem the problem is the

[00:57:29] buyer they are their own problem i have to therapeutically get them to face their own bad

[00:57:35] habit do you understand what i mean i love that yeah that's my job those are the questions i

[00:57:41] have to ask that is my craft that is why it people who are likable can't just become a

[00:57:48] salesperson it is a full craft it's a full trade that you have to learn how to do just like a smart

[00:57:54] guy who loves video games is not inherently an it guy that's right those are traits that common

[00:58:02] it guys have but they had to learn the trade right get the certifications get trained learn

[00:58:09] the tools that's another thing we haven't talked about it was like back to our thing we talked

[00:58:14] earlier when we they an msp owner says i'm going to go get look she's super likable she's charming

[00:58:20] she's sold before she's going to kill it here's a phone book or you know i don't think they make

[00:58:24] they don't make phone books anymore yeah here's the internet whatever i got a free lot i get a

[00:58:28] two month trial to seamless go for it uh okay but where is she going to keep her information

[00:58:38] what's the where's the list of people she's going to call how do you expect her to communicate your

[00:58:42] value how have you productized who's your product made for what is your product help people

[00:58:46] achieve that's like hiring a smart person putting them at a desk and say you're a

[00:58:51] technician now support my customers but you didn't give them a psa you didn't give them a

[00:58:56] knowledge base you didn't give them an email address i'm only laughing because that's exactly

[00:59:03] what they do to sales right and that you would never do that without an rm without some knowledge

[00:59:08] base without some training um and people hire generally if they hire entry level on the tech

[00:59:14] side they expect a lot longer learning curve leaning on that knowledge base spending time

[00:59:20] with the senior tech so why is it that we expect to hire a junior salesperson with no

[00:59:26] other team no equivalent of an rm no crm no data no anything and just say go you're going

[00:59:32] to do it yeah i mean it's because i think it's a lot of reasons it's because the the it owner

[00:59:39] understands the it journey they see themselves in the younger engineers they want to help those

[00:59:44] people because they know what they oftentimes didn't have those resources blah blah blah

[00:59:49] they feel i'm sorry to say they feel entitled to immediate results from a salesperson

[00:59:57] this is one of the stigmas that salespeople have they don't have stigma against their just

[01:00:01] their prospects salespeople are stigmatized by their bosses like well you're selfish for being

[01:00:08] a salesperson you're greedy i'm mad that you're going to make more money than my engineers

[01:00:12] and also go find me customers yeah it's so weird right but because they don't understand

[01:00:20] what really goes into sales this is part of my job why i'm doing the interviews like these

[01:00:24] msp owners i just want you to realize this person is entrepreneurial in spirit

[01:00:30] and they're willing to be a performance-based employee that means they're willing to say if i

[01:00:34] do a bad job for you you can pay me less that's why sales is inherently noble and they're willing

[01:00:41] to do it for you they're willing to grow your business they could be out growing their own

[01:00:47] business but they're growing your business at least that's amazing invest in their success

[01:00:53] which is your success right that's all they're asking for is can i have some tools i'm going

[01:00:59] to go build your future retirement home can i have a hammer that's what they're saying

[01:01:05] and you're saying no that's your job by god you're supposed to come up with that that's why

[01:01:10] i hired you for yeah you have to equip them train them tool them educate them motivate them

[01:01:18] support them that's your new full-time job that's what being a leader is right yeah but

[01:01:25] we don't do any of those things so if you've got a salesperson who's underperforming i don't want

[01:01:29] you to look at them i want you to look in the mirror first leaders should always look in the

[01:01:33] mirror first when they want to find blame that's right and just ask yourself what part did i

[01:01:38] play in this and if you've had multiple sales hires who were all unsuccessful the problem was

[01:01:43] probably you absolutely especially when there's multiple right it's not 100 in sales hires

[01:01:51] if you have a good process and you've got somebody to shadow and just the right training

[01:01:56] and environment but when you're when you're going through them left and right it's not the

[01:02:01] people it's you know so right um so that's how you bring empathy into the feel-good

[01:02:07] clothes as part of it what's what's one of the biggest misconceptions that msp's have

[01:02:14] about selling so first of all one of the biggest misconceptions is

[01:02:19] we kind of talked about it already oftentimes people say if i hire the person i'll get the

[01:02:23] results another one is if i buy the tools i'll get the results i just met an msp three days

[01:02:32] ago who was like i bought zoom info logged into it and realized we are nowhere near ready

[01:02:40] to use this yep and then he called me because he's like dude i'm invested in the tool

[01:02:48] and it's i don't know 20 40 grand probably right and realized oh what i didn't need was a tool i

[01:02:54] needed something else yeah i needed system people and tool but another big misconception

[01:03:02] is that people feel entitled to business because they have expertise in their craft

[01:03:12] i love that one msp owners feel entitled to running a successful msp because they're a good

[01:03:17] it guy you're not entitled to customers business is not a meritocracy right the best people don't

[01:03:26] win right that's the cold hard truth that's the cold hard truth and now i do have a

[01:03:33] generally optimistic paradigm which says if you work your ass off and do the right thing long

[01:03:39] enough and you stay humble so that you continue to grow you will be successful in life

[01:03:43] oftentimes the humility piece is missing because we stopped learning in 2006 when we were at the

[01:03:48] peak of our career and now all of our information is outdated because we refuse to remain a student

[01:03:53] right but it guys usually like it people are usually students they like to learn that's what

[01:03:58] usually brought them in so in an industry that evolves as fast as this one that's not usually

[01:04:03] the issue but you're not entitled to growing a business you're not entitled to being a

[01:04:07] you're not entitled to being a successful ceo and being a great it person does not mean

[01:04:13] you're going to be a good ceo no that's another big misconception is that the ceo should be

[01:04:20] the smartest technical person in the room that's not true if you insist on being the smartest

[01:04:25] technical person and in other words you refuse to hire people smarter than you

[01:04:30] you should hire a ceo and you should be the cto yeah and just go do what you want to do

[01:04:38] but otherwise you need to hire people better than you or else you will remain

[01:04:43] the bottleneck of your business's success yeah it's not about you it's not about the ego

[01:04:48] bring back the humility you mentioned earlier what's one of the commonly accepted

[01:04:56] what's something commonly accepted that's a piece of advice how to do sales how to do it

[01:05:01] you just you just can disagree with more the advice is if you if you share value correctly

[01:05:10] you won't get pushback on price that's a good one people say the word value way too much it's

[01:05:17] getting preposterous if you ever say the word share i'd like to share value i want you to

[01:05:26] slap yourself in the face i love that because telling someone you're going to share value is

[01:05:31] like telling someone you're about to say something funny that's what you're doing right

[01:05:37] because first of all terrible setup for a joke right no comedian ever leads with that right

[01:05:45] no guys this is the best one yeah this is the killer you guys get ready buckle up

[01:05:50] because then they cross their arms and they go i'll be the judge of that wise guy

[01:05:55] because you just told them how they feel you see what i mean there's the opposite of empathy

[01:06:01] that is i'm laughing because it's just a perfect analogy like i see so many people doing it

[01:06:06] and value is in the eye of the beholder it's like telling someone i am beautiful

[01:06:14] but beauty is in the eye of the beholder they get to decide if they think you're beautiful

[01:06:19] all i get to decide is if i think i'm beautiful so if i say i think i'm beautiful

[01:06:23] that's different than me saying you think i'm beautiful right so telling someone hey i'd

[01:06:27] like to share value with you is pointless instead just say something valuable and they'll decide

[01:06:35] if they find you valuable but present your value but value is in the eye of the beholder so

[01:06:41] rather than saying here's my value proposition that is another it's just a ridiculous thing to

[01:06:46] say out loud value proposition is a theoretical term okay it's a term from a business school

[01:06:54] where we say what are we bringing essentially what is the market need and how do we resolve it

[01:06:58] i'm not saying it i'm not saying that it doesn't exist what i'm saying is you should

[01:07:02] never lead by saying hey we're an it company our value prop is that blank you sound like

[01:07:09] you're you're treating them like command line and you're you're entering executables and

[01:07:13] expecting them to respond but that's not how humans are right so instead value should be

[01:07:22] question based we should be asking them what are you looking for in an it company not this is what

[01:07:30] you should look for in an it company i love that same as differentiation exact same thing

[01:07:36] differentiator the biggest differentiator when you're on a sales call is you're talking to

[01:07:40] them right now you're the only msp currently talking to them in this moment there's your

[01:07:44] freaking differentiator yeah so right take advantage ask good questions so don't say the

[01:07:51] thing that makes us different is like why do you even want to be different you don't even know

[01:07:55] that they want different right you don't know what they want because you won't shut up and

[01:08:00] ask them a question yes exactly well i feel like i could do this forever um and i want

[01:08:07] to be respectful of your time brian this is this is really awesome how can people get a

[01:08:11] hold of you if they want to learn more about you feel good msp um how should they reach out

[01:08:17] how can they get connected we'll make sure to put the links in but tell everybody how to

[01:08:21] how to connect with you yeah probably the best thing is to follow me on linkedin you know i post

[01:08:26] like training and helpful information every day that would probably be the best way but if

[01:08:31] you want to learn more about what we're doing specifically and how we're building sales our

[01:08:37] sales process development membership that would be feel good msp.com all right do live events at

[01:08:43] least one live event a month feel good msp.com workshop or you can go to the events tab on our

[01:08:50] main menu and just find our upcoming workshops on upcoming webinars or whatever but i would say

[01:08:55] linkedin or feel good msp.com would be the best place yeah look for the notes guys this

[01:09:01] is your opportunity to take advantage of what brian jolette is offering so don't miss if you

[01:09:07] if any of this resonated don't sit there take action you can have empathy you can change

[01:09:13] the view of sales to a noble profession to you sure we're in there brian so i love it that's

[01:09:20] how i viewed things that's why we hit it off so well we talked uh initially uh thank you for

[01:09:25] being on msp mindset brian and make sure you guys reach out and take advantage of his offer

[01:09:32] yeah thanks damian this has been really cool