Top 100 MSP Shares His Path to Exponential Growth, with Earl Foote (MSP Titan #2)

[00:00:00] How do you build a culture that can sustain not only 26 years, but all this growth?

[00:00:06] Scientifically, culture is top-level leadership behavior at scale throughout an organization.

[00:00:12] This is why I'm telling you, you're the bottleneck as the founder, right?

[00:00:15] The way you behave is the way the entire team will behave.

[00:00:20] Your toxicity, your dysfunction, or your level of function will exist throughout the entire organization.

[00:00:25] The bar you hold yourself to will exist throughout the entire organization.

[00:00:34] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset.

[00:00:39] I'm blessed today to be joined by Earl Foote, CEO of Nexus IT, and he is number 56 just this week.

[00:00:48] Fastest growing MSP in the nation.

[00:00:51] What makes that really interesting story, I think, is the fact that he's doing this without any private equity.

[00:00:57] He's done, in the last year, done this organically.

[00:01:00] Has experience doing M&A, but is, again, not using private equity.

[00:01:05] So MSP owner led and buy MSPs for MSPs.

[00:01:10] And we talk about how he went from 500K in revenue to eight figures in revenue.

[00:01:15] How he puts people first and how that affects every part of his business.

[00:01:19] If you want to hear the adversity and the ups and downs, then you're not going to miss out on this episode.

[00:01:27] I wanted to give folks a little bit of a flavor.

[00:01:29] I know we've covered it on a prior episode, but tell me about how long you've been an MSP.

[00:01:35] Yeah, Damien, thanks for having me on the show.

[00:01:38] Appreciate the honor of coming back again.

[00:01:40] And you're looking youthful.

[00:01:42] You look great.

[00:01:43] So you must be doing something right outside of your podcast to look good.

[00:01:51] Let's see.

[00:01:52] We are in September.

[00:01:53] We will have our 26th anniversary.

[00:01:57] We started in September of 1998.

[00:01:59] So we've been around a little over two and a half decades now.

[00:02:03] It's been quite a while.

[00:02:05] Yeah, that's a long time to do any one thing, right?

[00:02:08] So that's amazing to make it.

[00:02:10] It's crazy for me to think that I've been doing this more than half my lifetime.

[00:02:14] I started the business at 23 years old, and here I am, 49 now.

[00:02:23] So 26 years of my life that I've been doing this, it's kind of wild for me to think about.

[00:02:29] Right, right.

[00:02:30] Yeah, I'm sure it's hard to separate.

[00:02:32] Yeah, it certainly seems like it.

[00:02:35] And the MSP industry can own you, right?

[00:02:37] So it seems like a good portion of my life has been dedicated towards this.

[00:02:42] There's no doubt.

[00:02:44] Yeah.

[00:02:45] Yeah, well, I want to give some folks listening a sense of this.

[00:02:49] We're going to talk about a lot of the really cool, amazing things you're doing.

[00:02:53] But I want to give them a sense for why the heck did you start?

[00:02:57] And tell us a little bit about how you got started.

[00:03:01] Foolishness, stupidity, youthful ambitions.

[00:03:05] You know, I don't know.

[00:03:08] Exuberance.

[00:03:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:11] And naivete.

[00:03:14] Yeah, I was 23.

[00:03:16] My brother was 25.

[00:03:18] You know, we didn't know any better.

[00:03:20] You know, we just thought it was the dot-com boom.

[00:03:23] And we thought we were going to go, you know, build a tech company and be Bill Gates, you

[00:03:28] know, and Steve Jobs overnight.

[00:03:31] And lo and behold, we're still working on that.

[00:03:33] But, you know, 26 years later.

[00:03:36] But making good progress, you know.

[00:03:38] So, yeah, it was, you know, we actually kind of started the very first entrepreneurial foray

[00:03:46] was into a turnkey e-commerce network gear website.

[00:03:50] It was actually really pioneering in 1998.

[00:03:53] A company, my brother and I, we were both poor college students.

[00:03:57] We had young families.

[00:03:58] We were working full-time.

[00:04:01] And we each saved up $250 and put it into this $500 turnkey website that in 1998 had direct

[00:04:11] integration into the catalogs of Ingram Micro and Tech Data.

[00:04:15] And so, for $500, you had a turnkey website with millions of SKUs of computer hardware and

[00:04:22] network gear on it.

[00:04:24] And those discies would drop ship.

[00:04:27] You know, so we didn't have to inventory anything.

[00:04:32] You know, we figured that it was if you build it, they will come sort of thing, you know.

[00:04:37] Fill the dreams.

[00:04:38] And then, you know, we built it.

[00:04:39] And a month later, we were kind of like, hmm, you know, what's going on?

[00:04:44] You know, there's like three transactions, you know, for like $200, you know.

[00:04:49] Some video cards or something.

[00:04:50] I don't know.

[00:04:51] You know, we had no idea what digital marketing was.

[00:04:55] And really, digital marketing was just kind of emerging, you know.

[00:04:59] And so, we really had no idea how to drive traffic to the thing, nor did we have additional

[00:05:02] budget to do that.

[00:05:05] The interesting thing was, though, that it pretty quickly led to a lot of friends and

[00:05:11] family starting to ask us, you know, they found that out.

[00:05:14] They started to ask us if we could take care of the IT for their businesses, right?

[00:05:19] And so, we had this quick entrepreneurial epiphany and pivot, you know, into.

[00:05:25] At that time, you know, managed services wasn't a thing.

[00:05:27] And really, the bandwidth, the platforms, you know, the RMMs weren't there.

[00:05:32] The PSAs weren't there.

[00:05:33] You know, we made that investment into, you know, originally into Kaseya in the mid-2000s,

[00:05:39] 2004, I think, you know, when really, you know, the tool set started to evolve that

[00:05:46] enabled the managed service industry.

[00:05:48] But we were doing contract IT services.

[00:05:50] It was essentially lease an engineer for X amount of, you know, hours per week or per

[00:05:56] month.

[00:05:56] And we'd go on site and do service, you know.

[00:05:59] Every now and again, we'd dial up to a server, you know, over a 56K US robotics modem, you

[00:06:05] know, to do a reboot or something, you know, because it was, of course, you know, painful,

[00:06:10] right?

[00:06:10] To try to, I mean, a mouse click would take you five minutes to process, you know, over

[00:06:14] those connections.

[00:06:15] And I mean, back then, you know, a good connection was like an ISDN, you know, or a bond to T1.

[00:06:20] Yeah.

[00:06:20] I remember I really, really did not like you if you had changed your wallpaper to anything

[00:06:25] other than blank for that same reason.

[00:06:27] The refresh was terrible.

[00:06:28] Anybody who can relate to that?

[00:06:30] Yeah.

[00:06:30] Yeah.

[00:06:31] Yeah.

[00:06:31] Yeah.

[00:06:31] That was, it was brutal back then.

[00:06:35] So, yeah, that's really kind of where we got into, you know, the IT services, you know,

[00:06:40] sort of realm, contract IT project work.

[00:06:43] And then, you know, again, mid 2000s, you know, really kind of pivoted, started pivoting

[00:06:49] into, you know, the managed services model and more remote, less on site.

[00:06:53] We're still, we do a lot of on-site service where we value our face-to-face relationships

[00:06:59] with our clients.

[00:07:00] But of course, COVID has propelled, you know, a lot of, a lot more remote work.

[00:07:05] You know, a lot of our clients are fully remote or, you know, they're hybrid.

[00:07:10] Of course, that's enabled us as managed service providers to be able to service different

[00:07:13] organizations around the country or around the globe, right?

[00:07:17] Like, it's, it's broadened kind of the footprint of, you know, what we can service.

[00:07:21] And so, yeah, we still dabbled in e-commerce, Damon, you know, until about 2012 when we probably

[00:07:31] had eight e-commerce properties at that point.

[00:07:34] So, we had kind of this e-commerce side of the business, the IT services, you know, managed

[00:07:38] services side of the business.

[00:07:40] 2012, my brother and I decided to split the company in half.

[00:07:42] Um, and, uh, it was, it was a amicable, you know, uh, you know, dissolution of, of the,

[00:07:49] the partnership.

[00:07:50] We literally just client book assets, split it down the middle.

[00:07:53] Um, uh, we just had two different visions.

[00:07:55] I wanted a growth organization.

[00:07:56] He wanted a simple lifestyle business, um, which there are days where, you know, I, I,

[00:08:01] I, I envy, you know, that decision.

[00:08:03] Um, yeah, um, but, uh, so we just split it down the middle and, and, you know, um, that's

[00:08:11] for the past, you know, 12 years I've been, um, well, I, I scaled out of the e-commerce

[00:08:16] businesses because they were, um, you know, they, they weren't adequately profitable and

[00:08:20] they were distracting us from our core.

[00:08:22] So, um, I, I divested those, um, and, you know, then, and then put it hard into managed

[00:08:28] services, managed security services.

[00:08:29] And over the last 12 years of, you know, been bootstrapping, rebuilding the business.

[00:08:34] Um, you know, today we're, we're an eight figure MSP.

[00:08:37] Um, we, uh, we are growing very rapidly when we talk about that.

[00:08:42] Um, you know, actually this week we were named on the CRN, um, you know, uh, fast growth 150

[00:08:49] list at the 56 fastest growing MSP in the nation.

[00:08:53] Um, we are not currently, uh, PE backed or PE owned.

[00:08:57] Um, however, we are doing MNA.

[00:08:59] We've done seven MNA transactions to date, um, and we have active pipeline of other transactions

[00:09:05] that we're working on right now.

[00:09:07] Um, you know, to, to execute on, um, having some of our colleagues join forces with us and,

[00:09:12] you know, build a, uh, right now a, a super regional juggernaut is, you know, kind of the next,

[00:09:16] the next phase here.

[00:09:18] Um, so, uh, we're doing some fun stuff and some exciting stuff, you know,

[00:09:25] There's a ton to unpack there.

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:27] So congratulations on being 56 on CRN's list of fastest growing.

[00:09:32] Um, you're too humble so you probably won't brag, right?

[00:09:35] Two time Inc.

[00:09:36] 5000 winner.

[00:09:37] Three times.

[00:09:38] Three times.

[00:09:38] I'm going to brag.

[00:09:39] Three times out of this, out of this week.

[00:09:41] Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:43] Okay.

[00:09:43] Three times.

[00:09:44] Yeah.

[00:09:44] That just doesn't come easy.

[00:09:46] So, um, so I want to get into this.

[00:09:49] We've, I want to take our time to go through some of this so it's helpful for everyone listening.

[00:09:53] But what do you attribute to some of those things?

[00:09:56] Because one, 26 years and still being around is an accomplishment.

[00:10:02] And, uh, certainly being in the top 100, uh, fastest growing MSPs is, is just a whole different

[00:10:09] level.

[00:10:10] Um, getting to seven figures is a, is a dream of many.

[00:10:13] Getting to eight figures is, you know, not even a dream to some.

[00:10:17] Uh, so, um, you know, we'll probably keep going deeper here, but, but what do you attribute

[00:10:22] to some of that success too, Earl?

[00:10:23] Yeah.

[00:10:24] Um, Damon, really, I think, um, uh, as a business, uh, you know, I, I had to come to a realization

[00:10:31] that the bottleneck is you as the founder, right?

[00:10:34] Or the founding team.

[00:10:36] Um, it's your mindset, it's your vision, it's your dream, you know, um, to, to what extent

[00:10:43] can you think big and dream big and then execute big.

[00:10:46] Right.

[00:10:47] Um, um, and that requires really, I mean, the majority of us MSPs, we started as engineers,

[00:10:54] right?

[00:10:55] Like we, we, we aren't business operators inherently.

[00:10:58] We don't know how to run and scale and grow businesses.

[00:11:01] You know, um, we didn't, most of us didn't, didn't go get MBAs, you know, we, we came

[00:11:06] out of, you know, some, um, you know, um, IS degree or something like that.

[00:11:12] Right.

[00:11:12] Um, or, you know, tech, tech, you know, college or something like that.

[00:11:18] Um, and, uh, you know, most of us fell into the industry kind of by happenstance, you know,

[00:11:25] we might've freelanced a little bit to make ends meet, you know, where, while we're building

[00:11:30] families and suddenly like we have enough clientele, we can go full time.

[00:11:33] And then suddenly we got like three employees and it's like, oh my gosh, I got a business

[00:11:38] and I'm no longer like really engineering.

[00:11:41] I'm trying to run this business and it's kind of killing me.

[00:11:43] Like it's, it's, you know, um, you and I both know, like when you're, when you are that

[00:11:47] MSP with six to eight, 10 or 12, you know, employees, the business is owning you around

[00:11:53] the clock, like, like, yeah.

[00:11:56] Yeah.

[00:11:56] 6 AM until like 7 PM.

[00:11:59] You're doing engineering.

[00:12:00] You know, you're, you're, you're doing client escalations, you're running projects, you know,

[00:12:05] you're doing solutions engineering.

[00:12:07] Um, and then you got to try to do all the back office, you know, payroll, finance, AP,

[00:12:12] AR banking, you know, sales and marketing at night and, um, and the business owns you, but

[00:12:18] that's startup land, right?

[00:12:19] That's, that's the commitment.

[00:12:20] Um, I kind of like it.

[00:12:22] It's kind of fun.

[00:12:23] I still work more hours than I should probably.

[00:12:25] Um, but you know, I, I'm, I'm at a phase in life too, where I'm an empty nester, you know,

[00:12:30] my kids are, you know, they're adults and they're having fun doing their thing.

[00:12:33] Um, and my wife, you know, allows me the time during the week to, to, to grind, right.

[00:12:38] Um, to build right now, what is my Magnus Opus?

[00:12:43] Um, and so, um, you know, I'm, I'm having a good time and I don't mind working, you know,

[00:12:48] 12, 14, 16 hour days right now, because, uh, uh, I, uh, I like what we're doing big

[00:12:54] time vision and ambition.

[00:12:55] Um, and you know, the, the teams engaged, we're, we're unified, you know, we're building this

[00:13:00] together.

[00:13:02] Um, and we're having a good time.

[00:13:04] Doesn't mean we always win.

[00:13:05] Doesn't mean that, you know, we don't get our ass kicked sometimes that happened, you

[00:13:08] know?

[00:13:08] Um, um, and you got to take those gut punches, you know, but, uh, that's part of the mindset

[00:13:13] thing of, you know, um, taking the gut punches and, you know, honoring those, um, and then,

[00:13:19] uh, figuring out how to move on.

[00:13:20] Right.

[00:13:20] And how to, how to use those as learning lessons.

[00:13:23] So, uh, you know, Damon, really, it was a matter of me looking in the mirror and saying,

[00:13:29] if I want to build a high growth MSP, how am I going to do this?

[00:13:33] And I know I have to learn differently.

[00:13:36] I have to act differently.

[00:13:37] I have to think differently.

[00:13:39] Um, and I've got to learn to market and sell.

[00:13:41] Um, you know, I got to figure out product market fit.

[00:13:45] I got to figure out messaging that works.

[00:13:47] I got to figure out why people buy our services and our products and how that happens and how

[00:13:52] we meet them at the moment of need or pain.

[00:13:54] Right.

[00:13:54] Um, and so, um, and then you're taking all that knowledge.

[00:13:57] So going to a lot of, you know, industry peer groups and bootcamps and, you know, um,

[00:14:02] uh, three, three, three day or week long sort of business bootcamps and stuff like that.

[00:14:07] Right.

[00:14:07] So I, I decided to, you know, go from an engineer to turning myself into a CEO.

[00:14:12] Um, and that, you know, I really started that journey in 2012 when my brother and I split

[00:14:17] the business because I, here I was sole owner at that point of the business and said, well,

[00:14:22] what am I going to do?

[00:14:22] I have, I have big vision.

[00:14:25] How am I going to build it?

[00:14:26] Um, because I still 14 years into the business at that point, I knew how to not, how to operate

[00:14:31] a small business.

[00:14:32] I didn't know how to, to, you know, really scale a business and how to really market and

[00:14:37] sell, you know, MSP and MSSP services, um, and products.

[00:14:42] Right.

[00:14:42] So, um, yeah, and I'm still very much on that journey.

[00:14:45] I've, you know, surround myself with the right advisors, the right coaches.

[00:14:49] You know, I have a CEO coach who's fantastic.

[00:14:52] Um, used to run HP Asia, South Pacific for, um, so he used to run Asia, South Pacific

[00:14:57] or HP was a GM.

[00:14:59] So around a $3 billion business.

[00:15:00] He's my CEO coach.

[00:15:02] I have a great life coach.

[00:15:03] I have other good advisors, you know, and mentors and, and stuff around me, you know, that I

[00:15:07] learned from on a regular basis.

[00:15:08] You know, I have people, you know, Mark Sunday, the former CIO of Oracle is a friend that I

[00:15:13] take to coffee every three or four months and just pick Mark's brain.

[00:15:16] Right.

[00:15:16] He's retired now.

[00:15:17] Great guy.

[00:15:18] Um, you know, so I've been blessed to be able to, you know, um, create relationships,

[00:15:24] friendships, you know, and get into rooms that I probably don't belong into.

[00:15:28] Um, you know, um, but I've been blessed, you know, to be able to have those connections

[00:15:33] and people who've leaned into me and said, okay, like we, we see what you're up to.

[00:15:36] Um, and, um, you know, as long as I buy them a cup of coffee, they, they, they, you know,

[00:15:41] they give me some time and some advice.

[00:15:43] So, yeah.

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[00:16:22] I love that.

[00:16:23] So I think I know I've spent a lot on personal development.

[00:16:27] You have as well, uh, for the folks that are listening that haven't yet or that are wondering,

[00:16:32] give me your input.

[00:16:34] Like what, what's been worth it?

[00:16:35] And you mentioned your coach, life coach, those sort of things.

[00:16:37] Like what, what's made the impact on you?

[00:16:41] Um, I think the biggest thing for me is, is getting very real with yourself.

[00:16:46] Damon, um, uh, we can dig in deeper and peel back some layers.

[00:16:50] I, I'm a, I'm a deep student and practitioner of, uh, of awareness, mindfulness, the pursuit

[00:16:58] of consciousness.

[00:16:58] Um, uh, I'm a yogi, um, I'm a, I'm a hippie.

[00:17:02] Um, and, um, for me, that journey really has, uh, helped me understand and know that,

[00:17:10] that most of us live in some altered state of reality.

[00:17:15] Most of the time we, we have this, you know, very, um, biased view of the world and what's

[00:17:23] happening around us and, you know, limiting beliefs and ego and emotional, you know, triggers,

[00:17:31] you know, that, that determine the way that we, that we think that we act, that we behave,

[00:17:35] that we engage with other people.

[00:17:36] Um, and for me, it's been stripping back all of that and really getting very real with

[00:17:41] myself, um, and real with my outcomes and holding myself accountable.

[00:17:46] Like, and having those people around me who hold me accountable, right.

[00:17:49] You know, life coaches and CEO coaches that I meet with every week or every two weeks.

[00:17:53] And, you know, I have accountability, you know, my, my life coach texts me every single

[00:17:57] day.

[00:17:57] I have, you know, um, every two weeks I have a new, um, a new, uh, accountability sort

[00:18:04] of, you know, check in with him and, you know, he texts me every single day and I have

[00:18:08] to respond to him on what I've done, you know?

[00:18:09] Um, and so, you know, again, getting real with myself, I'm the bottleneck, you know, a

[00:18:15] business is only going to do as well as you, as you decide to develop as a, as a person,

[00:18:20] as a leader.

[00:18:21] And I would argue, you know, as a human being, um, you know, I, I think that, um, that the

[00:18:26] more you, you work to develop yourself to become a good, decent, you know, human being that

[00:18:31] showing up, um, in the world and doing positive things, you know, the, the, the more likely

[00:18:35] you're going to be, you know, a great leader, right.

[00:18:38] And be able to achieve significant things.

[00:18:40] And you're going to engage people, you know, far better.

[00:18:42] Like in today's world, people want purpose-driven missions, right?

[00:18:45] Um, yeah.

[00:18:46] And the, the purpose isn't just financial outcomes, right?

[00:18:49] It's, it's, you know, what you can do to help elevate people, how, how you can help

[00:18:53] elevate your community, you know, how you elevate your clients and all that kind of stuff.

[00:18:57] That's our mission, by the way, elevate it.

[00:18:59] Um, yeah.

[00:19:01] I love that.

[00:19:02] Very simple.

[00:19:03] Yeah.

[00:19:04] Not, not too, not too hard to remember there at all.

[00:19:07] So, um, for those that are listening, where, where, if I'm not already in multiple coaches

[00:19:14] and peer groups and all the things like, what, where do you recommend I start to, to, if I

[00:19:19] buy into, which I do, that I'm the bottleneck, I'm what's holding it back.

[00:19:23] How do I change my mindset?

[00:19:24] How do I, how do I become accountable to somebody?

[00:19:27] Because as a business owner, you could just be accountable to yourself, which is probably

[00:19:31] the worst thing in my experience.

[00:19:34] Yeah, I, I totally agree.

[00:19:35] And, and, you know, I, I know lots of friends that, for example, are solo founders.

[00:19:40] Um, you know, there are two other shareholders in Nexus now by way of, you know, our last,

[00:19:44] uh, merger acquisition that we did.

[00:19:46] Um, uh, so I'm not, I'm not the sole founder, you know, um, sole shareholder now in Nexus

[00:19:51] IT.

[00:19:52] Um, but I, I know a lot of solopreneurs that, um, for example, will form an advisory board

[00:19:56] or a formal board, a fiduciary board, you know, that, um, because they, they want somebody

[00:20:02] to help hold them accountable, you know, um, and they want direction and that kind of stuff.

[00:20:07] I think that's a great idea, but, but, um, you don't have to go hire coaches.

[00:20:11] Um, I certainly recommend, you know, um, developing yourself at minimum with podcasts like this,

[00:20:19] you know, and books, you know, I think that there's so much you can gain from, gain from

[00:20:24] books.

[00:20:24] Um, uh, you know, uh, Damien, I'm, I think, you know, I'm, I'm a musician.

[00:20:29] Um, you know, music is, it means a lot to me, but I made a commitment to myself, you know,

[00:20:34] 10 or 12 years ago that between the hours of eight to five, Monday through Friday, um, or

[00:20:38] on my commutes that, um, I would be listening to books to help me develop as a person and

[00:20:43] as a leader.

[00:20:44] Um, you know, this book right here, the mastery of self by don Miguel Ruiz, um, fantastic

[00:20:51] book on, on just like getting real with yourself.

[00:20:54] You know, um, this book, uh, awareness by Anthony DeMello, um, a really fun book on, uh, you

[00:21:01] know, if you listen to this on, on audible or, you know, any other format, Anthony DeMello,

[00:21:05] it's great sense of humor.

[00:21:07] Um, he's really fun to listen to.

[00:21:09] Um, anyways, just, you know, start by looking at your mindset because the reality is the main

[00:21:18] thing that holds us back as human beings is our own mindset, right?

[00:21:24] It's, it's, uh, it's our own belief in ourselves, our belief in the vision, our belief in the,

[00:21:29] in the, in the company, in the, you know, in the employees.

[00:21:33] Um, uh, so you gotta start by, you know, by changing your mindset and, um, beginning to

[00:21:40] do away with some of the reality distortions, the delusions and, um, and working on your

[00:21:48] ego, your mindset, your trauma, right.

[00:21:51] Um, and, um, you know, figuring out how to show up and, and actually lead in a, in a,

[00:21:57] in a realm of reality, right.

[00:21:59] Um, that's the way that I, I feel.

[00:22:01] So, um, yeah, there's so many good podcasts out now, you know, um, where you can get lots

[00:22:06] of good ideas and information.

[00:22:08] There's so many good books.

[00:22:09] Um, you know, you don't have to hire a coach, but some of the, uh, there's no doubt, like

[00:22:15] the two coaches I have right now have been two of the most influential people in my life.

[00:22:20] Um, they have, they have helped me propel my growth as a human being and as a leader, as

[00:22:25] a founder, you know, um, at a pace that I've never had before because they're, they're

[00:22:31] evolved human beings, you know, um, they've, uh, they've been there, done that.

[00:22:35] And, um, you know, have, have so much experience and wisdom that they're willing to share with

[00:22:40] me and impart.

[00:22:41] And then again, you know, hold me accountable, um, uh, which I think is super important, you

[00:22:46] know, having an accountability partner.

[00:22:47] Yeah.

[00:22:48] Yeah.

[00:22:49] I love that.

[00:22:50] So tell me about how you've managed to grow like this, right?

[00:22:54] We talked a little bit about growth hacking, but there's a lot to it.

[00:22:58] There's, there's organic, there's all kinds of things.

[00:23:00] I don't want to put the words in your mouth, but how are you growing now?

[00:23:04] Yeah.

[00:23:04] And we talked 18 months ago when everybody was growing and now not everybody is growing,

[00:23:09] uh, with the economy.

[00:23:10] So how are you still managing to grow and, and how'd you even get to that place?

[00:23:17] So, um, very good.

[00:23:19] And it's, it's complex, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll break it down as best I can, but maybe I'm

[00:23:23] going to be slightly braggadocious upfront.

[00:23:24] Just, you know, um, you know, again, you know, we did hit that, you know, uh, CRN fast one

[00:23:30] 50 this, this week, along with the 5,000, we landed on eight 5,000 at position number

[00:23:36] 2146, which is bested over about 1200 over our position two years ago.

[00:23:42] Um, um, we landed at on that list, the 45th fastest growing company in Utah, the 128 fastest

[00:23:51] growing it services provider in the nation.

[00:23:53] So it services includes, you know, bars and professional services and MSPs and all that

[00:23:58] kind of stuff.

[00:23:59] Right.

[00:23:59] Um, we've also landed, we'll, we'll be attending next week, uh, the Utah fast 50, um, award ceremony.

[00:24:06] We're in the top, you know, fastest 50 growing companies in Utah on that list.

[00:24:11] We don't know where we'll find out at those awards last year, we were number 33 on that

[00:24:14] list.

[00:24:15] Um, and, uh, it's very commendable for the team, you know, um, what they have achieved.

[00:24:22] Um, you know, we have a burgeoning tech scene in Utah.

[00:24:26] There are some, there are some massive, you know, unicorn venture backed tech organizations

[00:24:32] here that are worth, you know, $40 billion.

[00:24:36] Um, and, you know, one story, for example, Divi, that grew from zero to a $3 billion exit

[00:24:43] in three years.

[00:24:44] Right.

[00:24:45] Um, you know, so for us to, to get in the ranks of, you know, bootstrapping, um, and land

[00:24:52] in the top 50 fastest growing companies in Utah, um, when there's a lot of venture capital

[00:24:56] going into SAS, you know, firms into CPG and that kind of stuff.

[00:25:01] Um, you know, it, it's a pretty big feat.

[00:25:05] Um, you know, Damon, it, it all goes back to 12 years ago going, I don't know how to market

[00:25:10] and sell this thing.

[00:25:11] Um, and I got to figure it out.

[00:25:13] And so I took it on myself to become CEO, CRO, CMO.

[00:25:18] Um, and I took it on myself to, you know, to go learn how to market and sell a business

[00:25:24] and, you know, in services and particularly, you know, in, in managed and managed security

[00:25:29] managed IT managed security.

[00:25:31] Um, and beginning to get very intentional, um, you know, stepping out of my engineer shoes

[00:25:37] and stepping into, you know, my growth hacker shoes, um, getting very intentional about,

[00:25:43] um, my, you know, I'm very multi-layered marketing, branding and marketing approach.

[00:25:50] You know, if you look at our, you know, our organization today, and that's the thing in,

[00:25:55] in MSP land, you're not going to run one campaign for three months and suddenly, you know, become

[00:26:02] an overnight success.

[00:26:03] It's, you have to invest longterm and that's hard in our industry.

[00:26:08] Like finding the time to simply do it and the money, right?

[00:26:12] Because this is a low margin industry.

[00:26:15] None of us are churning massive amounts of profit, right?

[00:26:17] Um, you know, if you're, if you're a best performer at 20, 25% EBITDA, but the reality

[00:26:22] is true cashflow is significantly less than that.

[00:26:26] So, you know, how are you going to invest 8% of your annual budget into, into branding

[00:26:30] and marketing, right?

[00:26:31] That's, that's a hard proposition, but it's a longterm investment.

[00:26:35] And that's what I've done.

[00:26:36] I, I, I still take a very modest salary today, Damon, you know, for our side.

[00:26:40] Um, I have friends, you know, building businesses, even in our space, you know, or other spaces

[00:26:45] that are at, you know, a similar revenue to us that take four or five times more home

[00:26:49] a year than I do.

[00:26:51] Um, because I, I'm playing the long game.

[00:26:53] I, I, you know, I, I take our profits, you know, and I reinvest into growth, um, into branding,

[00:26:59] marketing, and sales strategies.

[00:27:00] Um, but you gotta go, you gotta go build those strategies.

[00:27:03] You gotta, you gotta experiment with those strategies.

[00:27:05] You gotta figure out what sticks, you know?

[00:27:07] Um, and then once you figure it out, you nail, you know, you nail it, right?

[00:27:11] And it's very data driven.

[00:27:13] Um, but you have, before, before you go a little further there, Earl, I want to back up

[00:27:18] for a second.

[00:27:18] You mentioned you're investing about 8%.

[00:27:21] Yeah, it's 8% of about 8% of annual budget of annual revenue into branding and marketing.

[00:27:29] That does not include sales, you know, sales, sales is another eight or 10%, um, in, in the,

[00:27:35] you know, sales staff and commission.

[00:27:36] Right.

[00:27:37] Um, so that's, you know, which means we, we got it, we have to be performing, you know,

[00:27:43] at a 25, 30, uh, you know, 30% EBITDA so that we can afford to, to reinvest in the,

[00:27:48] in the growth engines of the organization.

[00:27:49] Right.

[00:27:50] Um, well, that's what I wanted to highlight.

[00:27:52] If you're talking about 8% roughly in, of revenue into marketing annually, right?

[00:27:59] That's a lot of people don't realize even at a million dollar MSP, it's 80 grand a year.

[00:28:04] Yep.

[00:28:05] Uh, at a $10 million MSP, it's 800,000 a year.

[00:28:08] And I think a lot of people either, if they invested it once or twice, then they let their

[00:28:12] foot off the gas and they don't continue at that level.

[00:28:15] And it's a, it's a massive investment in absolute and in percent terms.

[00:28:20] Yep.

[00:28:21] And it's just so easy to not.

[00:28:23] Yep.

[00:28:23] And I just think since I was an MSP that came from the technical bend, there's so many other

[00:28:29] things you can do with your time and your money.

[00:28:32] And then there's sales.

[00:28:33] Yep.

[00:28:33] Like you said, another eight or 10% as well.

[00:28:36] So I think I just wanted to highlight, uh, you doesn't mean if you throw numbers at it

[00:28:43] and cash at it, especially that you'll just magically know.

[00:28:47] But if you're radically underinvesting, uh, especially as you're growing.

[00:28:52] Your prospects of growth.

[00:28:54] Yeah.

[00:28:54] Yeah.

[00:28:54] How can you expect to, to really grow?

[00:28:56] So, so I wanted to highlight that cause I knew you were covering that.

[00:28:59] And radically underinvesting, not only monetarily, but in effort, right?

[00:29:03] Yes.

[00:29:03] Um, you know, just maybe a couple of quick thoughts to round out and write this out.

[00:29:08] And that is in the MSP industry, Damon, you're not going to sell ice to an Eskimo.

[00:29:14] Like, like you're not going to sell products and service to somebody unless they're in a

[00:29:19] moment of need or pain.

[00:29:20] Right.

[00:29:20] Um, like it's, it's nearly impossible to go sell, you know, earthquake insurance to

[00:29:27] somebody who's not in an earthquake zone.

[00:29:29] Right.

[00:29:29] And that's kind of the way that most senior business, you know, um, decision makers think

[00:29:35] about it and cybersecurity until they have an outage until they have a breach until their

[00:29:41] director of it leaves or, you know, their board says, Hey, we got to cut budget and you

[00:29:46] got to get rid of the it and cyber team.

[00:29:47] Right.

[00:29:49] Um, um, you know, so you have to be prevalent.

[00:29:53] You have to be front of mind, which means you have to make a long-term investment into

[00:29:58] building brand.

[00:29:58] Um, and you know, for us in today's world, that's, that's, uh, you know, it's a multi-layered

[00:30:04] approach, but it's very content driven.

[00:30:07] It's thought leadership, you know, um, it's, um, it's content.

[00:30:12] Um, it's building a trusted advisor persona in your marketplace.

[00:30:16] Right.

[00:30:17] Um, it's ongoing, you know, PPC and SEO and, um, you know, email, uh, um, email drip campaigns,

[00:30:25] um, holding events, right.

[00:30:27] Sponsoring events, you know, keeping your brand prevalent in front of people's, um, eyes and,

[00:30:32] and, and getting out and building relationships.

[00:30:34] Right.

[00:30:34] Because this is, you have to realize that people will not, um, they will not outsource IT and

[00:30:44] cyber to you until they trust you implicitly.

[00:30:46] This is a trust based relationship business.

[00:30:49] Right.

[00:30:49] And so you have to build those relationships.

[00:30:53] And, and basically what I did to growth hack is I was looking at, man, this has taken 24

[00:30:58] to 36 months to build those relationships of trust and then meet them at the moment of

[00:31:03] need where we become relevant.

[00:31:05] And they, they say, oh, let's, let's talk.

[00:31:07] Right.

[00:31:07] Um, so I said, well, how do we build relationships of trust at scale?

[00:31:12] And, uh, that's, that's just, you know, prevalent branding, right.

[00:31:15] Um, today I think, uh, undeniably we are the most prevalent brand in the space and in the,

[00:31:21] you know, in the Utah market and becoming that in the Intermountain West, we are the official

[00:31:25] cyber partner to the Utah jazz.

[00:31:27] You know, that's part of that effort as well.

[00:31:29] Um, we are by the way, the fastest growing and the largest MSP in Utah right now, even,

[00:31:35] um, outside of the, uh, you know, the, the PE backed ones.

[00:31:38] Um, so, um, uh, but you know, it's again, staying front of mind and delivering on your

[00:31:47] client experience.

[00:31:47] So to that front, our team is all in Damon on, on, we are building, uh, an elite organization

[00:31:54] with people who show up with elite mindset, elite behavior and elite performance so that

[00:32:00] we can deliver real world value for our clients.

[00:32:03] And we can deliver real world value for our people.

[00:32:05] Right.

[00:32:06] Um, and to that, you know, to that end right now we're sitting at 98% client retention

[00:32:11] rate, 98% CSAT, 63.2 NPS score from our clients.

[00:32:16] Um, we respond to 98% of our tickets in a half hour and resolve 98% in two and a half hours.

[00:32:23] That's a crossed, um, you know, uh, service desk escalations, knock, sock, um, you know,

[00:32:28] that's crossed every, everybody, um, all of our functions, um, excluding our projects.

[00:32:33] Cause of course those are different, you know, um, but, um, you know, we deliver, we, we show

[00:32:38] up, we deliver for our clients.

[00:32:40] Um, that builds a reputation.

[00:32:41] It builds trust.

[00:32:42] Um, and you know, we get referred to a lot of relationships, you know, from our other

[00:32:48] clients, um, or, you know, referral partners and stuff like that, because people know they

[00:32:52] can count on us.

[00:32:53] Um, they know if you're going to outsource IT or cyber, you know, in the intermountain

[00:32:57] West, you go to Nexus IT because Nexus IT has your back.

[00:33:01] So that is amazing growth.

[00:33:04] And that helps me understand the organic strategy, but you've done seven acquisitions.

[00:33:10] That's correct.

[00:33:12] Okay.

[00:33:13] So tell me about your view.

[00:33:16] It seems like everybody's either looking to acquire or being, you know, uh, sought for

[00:33:22] acquisition.

[00:33:22] So tell me about your thoughts and what's different about your approach.

[00:33:26] Yeah.

[00:33:26] The, the MST space is a highly acquisitive space right now, right?

[00:33:30] Um, everybody is getting hit up by, by PE or whatever, or, you know, um, other colleagues

[00:33:36] and that kind of stuff for hitting people up.

[00:33:38] Um, there's a great opportunity because it's massively fragmented space, right?

[00:33:43] 120,000 ish managed service providers, managed security service providers nationwide.

[00:33:48] Predominantly, as you said, actually, you know, data would show about 90% of managed service

[00:33:54] providers nationwide are less than 2 million a year in revenue.

[00:33:58] Um, and actually more like 70 or 75% or a million or below in revenue, right?

[00:34:03] Like there's a, a small segment of us about 5% that are kind of above that 5 million, 10

[00:34:08] million range.

[00:34:09] And then you have your megas, the, you know, the Microsoft, IBMs, Dells, Cap, Gemini, Cognizant,

[00:34:15] the big four that have their managed, you know, their enterprise managed service practices.

[00:34:19] Right.

[00:34:19] Um, and, um, you know, so it, there's, there is a significant opportunity.

[00:34:25] And of course there's this arbitrage opportunity of you, you buy smaller MSPs that are lesser

[00:34:31] multiple.

[00:34:31] You combine that revenue and EBITDA and it's worth more, you know, the, the multiple on

[00:34:35] EBITDA is worth more once you combine it all.

[00:34:37] Right.

[00:34:38] So there's that arbitrage opportunity.

[00:34:40] Um, uh, what do I feel like we're doing different?

[00:34:43] Um, I, I feel like we are a people first organization.

[00:34:47] We are a, an MSP owned MSP operated platform right now.

[00:34:52] Um, and that means we still highly prioritize client experience and people experience.

[00:34:58] Um, we're going on about 200 PE owned MSP platforms in the nation right now.

[00:35:05] Um, uh, and there's a lot of really good people in those organizations.

[00:35:09] There's a lot of really good PEs doing a lot of really good work.

[00:35:13] Um, there's a lot that are really founder friendly, you know, that are making the

[00:35:17] proposition very advantageous for, you know, for other MSPs.

[00:35:20] Um, and they have good, good cultures, right.

[00:35:24] Um, they're not disrupting, you know, and, and doing, um, you know, things that, that

[00:35:29] really kind of tank the business.

[00:35:30] And then there are those that do, um, we've seen firsthand, you know, um, PE owned MSP

[00:35:37] platforms lose 50% of their clients and their team in the, in the first 18 to 24 months.

[00:35:42] Um, we, we are a people business.

[00:35:45] Our product is people, you know, the way that the way that I look at it at Nexus IT is

[00:35:51] we build a culture that empowers the success of people where they can do the best work of

[00:35:55] their career.

[00:35:56] Um, that is the type of environment that we are, we are creating for us as leaders.

[00:36:01] Our number one priority is people experience our number one priority.

[00:36:04] And that doesn't mean that we, that we enable poor behavior or poor performance.

[00:36:08] We're a high performing organization.

[00:36:10] If you want to be part of an elite organization like Nexus IT, you show up.

[00:36:14] Um, that's, you know, that's our expectation.

[00:36:16] Like, you know, we're building the 1998, you know, uh, bulls organization around here, right?

[00:36:21] The world champions.

[00:36:22] Um, you know, we're, we're not building a run of the mill mediocre sort of organization

[00:36:26] and we don't allow mediocre talent to come around.

[00:36:30] Um, so we hire, right.

[00:36:31] We coach people up, right.

[00:36:33] We retain great people.

[00:36:34] We give them opportunity.

[00:36:36] We let them grow within their career.

[00:36:37] We support them, you know, give them the resources they need.

[00:36:41] Um, and if they're not aligned and they're on the wrong bus or in the wrong seat, then we

[00:36:45] have to have conversations about, you know, you're on the wrong bus and, and you should

[00:36:48] probably go find something else that fulfills you better.

[00:36:50] Right.

[00:36:51] Um, yeah.

[00:36:53] Um, let me back up for a second.

[00:36:55] Um, I want to get more into the, into culture.

[00:36:58] I know that you're people first and it's near and dear to my heart, but I want to come back

[00:37:02] for just a minute and talk about, cause we went, you know, that you've done seven acquisitions.

[00:37:08] Obviously it's really hot right now.

[00:37:10] Um, there's so much opportunity, but you, you talked about the economic arbitrage opportunity.

[00:37:16] Um, unpack that a little bit more for me.

[00:37:19] If I'm listening, I'm not an MNA veteran.

[00:37:21] Yeah.

[00:37:22] What does that mean?

[00:37:23] And why is that such an interesting option opportunity right now?

[00:37:27] Yeah.

[00:37:27] So, and this is why PE and family office and stuff are, are, you know, hyper bullish on,

[00:37:32] you know, uh, the industry as well as it's, it's a steady eddy industry.

[00:37:35] It's got good growth, growth prospects, right.

[00:37:38] Um, stable, steady growth.

[00:37:40] And, and, you know, we're not projected to go anywhere.

[00:37:43] Like your companies need it, they need cloud, they need cyber.

[00:37:47] And for the next 50 plus years, as far as we know, they're going to write.

[00:37:51] Um, AI of course is going to disrupt some things, but you know, it's, it's pretty minimal

[00:37:55] to this point and we're technologists.

[00:37:58] So we're using AI, you know, to empower our own businesses and we're figuring out how

[00:38:02] to innovate with AI, right.

[00:38:03] And help our clients in the AI.

[00:38:05] So I think we're on that curve.

[00:38:07] So the arbitrage opportunity, let's say, um, you know, uh, you've got a, an MSP doing $2 million

[00:38:15] a year in business, you know, um, you know, they're 70 or 80% recurring revenue.

[00:38:22] Um, they're performing at like, you know, call it, oh, you know, on a, on a really good

[00:38:30] day, like 350 or 400,000 in it, in EBITDA.

[00:38:33] Right.

[00:38:34] Um, that business is probably going to warrant a two to four X multiple on EBITDA, um, you

[00:38:42] know, as, as a purchase price, right.

[00:38:44] Um, you know, if the owner is going to sell it or sell, you know, into another platform,

[00:38:48] um, uh, you know, so let's just for round numbers, let's say that, you know, they're

[00:38:53] doing 400,000 in EBITDA a year and they get an offer for three X EBITDA.

[00:38:59] And, um, you know, they're, they're, they're going to sell, you know, for a $1.2 million.

[00:39:04] Right.

[00:39:04] Um, once the business size starts to graduate the top line revenue, the growth rate and the,

[00:39:11] you know, the, the aggregated EBITDA.

[00:39:13] Uh, so now let's say you take a $10 million MSP, uh, you know, you've combined three other

[00:39:19] MSPs to get there.

[00:39:21] Um, and that $10 million MSP is performing at $2 million EBITDA, um, a year.

[00:39:27] Right.

[00:39:28] Um, well now you've got, you know, you've got an organization that will probably command six

[00:39:34] to eight X, you know, and if it's high growth, got some really good strategic things going

[00:39:39] on great client book, you know, strong contracts, long-term contracts, it may get eight to 10 X

[00:39:45] on EBITDA.

[00:39:46] Um, so, um, you know, a $2 million a year, but, uh, you know, MSP suddenly is commanding

[00:39:51] 16, 20 million, right.

[00:39:53] In the marketplace, um, to trade at.

[00:39:56] Um, and so, you know, as an aggregator, and I think, you know, we're very different about

[00:40:00] the way we aggregate, we integrate a hundred percent and we integrate cultures.

[00:40:04] We integrate teams.

[00:40:05] We integrate leaders.

[00:40:06] We integrate tech stacks and client books, you know, a lot of the platforms out there

[00:40:10] are, you know, there's a, there's a top co and then there's just subsidiaries.

[00:40:13] Right.

[00:40:14] And they're not integrating or, you know, um, uh, adding value with back office services.

[00:40:19] And there are some that are, there are some that are doing really great work there.

[00:40:22] You know, um, there are those that aren't, um, the, you know, for us, there's a value prop.

[00:40:27] Like when, you know, if you're a colleague or MSP colleague, we want to give you some sanity

[00:40:31] back.

[00:40:31] Cause we know you're, you're, you're, you're, you're burning the candle around the clock.

[00:40:35] So we want to take back office off your plate.

[00:40:37] We want to take marketing yourselves off your plate.

[00:40:39] We want to give you a normal, you know, eight to 10 hour a day job, um, you know, um, and,

[00:40:45] and give you a little bit of your sanity and balance of life back, um, and take care of

[00:40:48] that stuff for you.

[00:40:50] Um, but anyway, so arbitrage, you know, um, you know, if you, you go by, you know, if you

[00:41:05] are at 8 million a year or 10 million a year, you know, suddenly you may have an MSP platform

[00:41:11] that's worth 30, 40, you know, million or, or, you know, even a little bit higher, right.

[00:41:16] Um, because you're, you're getting that accretive value of the stock value increasing based upon

[00:41:23] the size of the EBITDA.

[00:41:25] Um, and of course the, the, the overall performance and growth of the business as well.

[00:41:30] Um, so yeah, hopefully that's helpful for the people that are trying to understand, um,

[00:41:34] MNA in the, in the MSP space right now.

[00:41:36] And it's a, um, it's kind of funky.

[00:41:39] There's a good opportunity.

[00:41:39] And I think it's, it's really exciting for MSP owners, Damon, because, you know, our exit

[00:41:46] prospects seven years ago or eight years ago, weren't that great.

[00:41:49] Like, you know, you might think about, oh, well, you know, this is going to be a family

[00:41:53] business and I'm going to transition it to my kids and I might get some sort of retirement

[00:41:57] out of it, but it's really going to be, it's not a retirement out of liquidity.

[00:42:00] It's more of a retirement out of, you know, I make enough every year that I put some

[00:42:04] investments away.

[00:42:05] Um, you know, I roll some into some 401k and different investment vehicles, right?

[00:42:10] Um, today MSP owners can create generational wealth, which we couldn't do a decade ago,

[00:42:17] you know?

[00:42:18] Um, um, so, um, you know, there, there is a significant opportunity.

[00:42:22] You have to build a good business, you know, like you're not a good target if, if you're

[00:42:26] not building a strong, solid, you know, business.

[00:42:28] So you have to build a good business.

[00:42:30] Um, but if you build a good business, suddenly, you know, MSP owners can make, um, you know,

[00:42:35] they can make some good money.

[00:42:36] And like with us, you know, when colleagues join us, you know, they, they roll stock into

[00:42:40] Nexus IT.

[00:42:41] Tell you the last acquisition we did two years ago, um, you know, and we took two years to

[00:42:46] really get through all of that integration.

[00:42:47] That was the biggest we did.

[00:42:49] Um, you know, it took some time to get through all that integration and then get back out

[00:42:52] to looking at M&A targets.

[00:42:54] But in two years, those two owners have quintupled the value of their stock in two years with us,

[00:43:01] right?

[00:43:02] Wow.

[00:43:02] 5X the value of their stock they brought to us.

[00:43:04] Um, so, um, you know, that, that's the type of prospects you can think about, right?

[00:43:09] If you're, if you're joining, um, you know, whatever platform it is, I just, I'm, I'm, I'm

[00:43:15] partial the way that we're building our platform because, you know, we're MSP owner friendly,

[00:43:19] we're people friendly, you know, we're client friendly, those things matter to us, you know?

[00:43:24] Um, um, and the financial outcomes absolutely matter.

[00:43:27] We are, you know, we are hyper-focused on, on win-win scenarios across the board.

[00:43:32] Um, we're hyper-focused on our, our frontline contributors winning.

[00:43:35] Like, you know, we want them to win right alongside everybody else.

[00:43:38] Um, you know, they're incentivized to do so, you know, profit sharing programs and all that

[00:43:42] kind of stuff as well, you know?

[00:43:44] Um, so that, um, you know, everybody's winning.

[00:43:47] I don't believe that business needs to be a zero sum game.

[00:43:50] I think it should always be a win-win scenario.

[00:43:54] Tell me about your, how do you build a culture that can sustain not only 26 years, but all

[00:44:01] this growth, which is wonderful, but growth is.

[00:44:05] Challenge.

[00:44:06] It's own challenge.

[00:44:06] M&A is challenge.

[00:44:07] And M&A and integration and I lost my favorite tech tool and now I have a different role in

[00:44:14] this organization.

[00:44:15] So there's wonderful things, but there's real challenges in there.

[00:44:19] So how do you, how do you approach culture?

[00:44:23] Um, that's cause it's, you know, that's something that's so easy to get wrong.

[00:44:27] Yeah.

[00:44:27] First, the first and foremost, I would, I would say just, uh, you know, a word of, word of

[00:44:31] advice, right?

[00:44:31] A word of wisdom.

[00:44:32] Um, you know, if you've never done M&A before, don't go attempt it until you, you get some

[00:44:38] good advisors around you.

[00:44:40] You know, that's what I did.

[00:44:40] I got a really good CFO, um, a really good chief people officer who understands, you know,

[00:44:45] cultural and leadership philosophical fit.

[00:44:47] Um, and, uh, you know, they're a big part of my M&A strategy and team, um, you know, uh,

[00:44:53] so that we find the right, the right organizations, the right teams.

[00:44:56] Um, you know, if you'll try to do M&A on your own, the, the psychological disruption that

[00:45:01] happens for owners and their teams through an M&A process, if you don't know how to navigate

[00:45:06] that well, the whole thing can come off the rails and it can tank a good MSP.

[00:45:09] Like if you're a solid MSP, you do the wrong M&A and, and you can absolutely sink your

[00:45:15] ship.

[00:45:15] Um, if you're not careful, careful.

[00:45:17] Um, so, um, to answer your question though, culture, the first thing that I, that I, you

[00:45:22] know, two things that I think that are really important to understand one is scientifically,

[00:45:27] and this is an, our chief people officer.

[00:45:28] Again, he was GM of Asia, South Pacific.

[00:45:31] He's also my CEO coach, but you know, uh, and coaches the entire leadership team in

[00:45:35] Nexus IT, um, GM of Asia, South Pacific for HP has a doctorate in behavioral science, you

[00:45:41] know, behind high performing organizations and teams, the neuroscientists, you know, um,

[00:45:46] with an organizational, um, uh, uh, organizational, um, behavior, you know, um, doctorate.

[00:45:52] Right.

[00:45:52] Um, and scientifically culture is top level leadership behavior at scale throughout an organization.

[00:46:00] This is why I'm telling you, you're the bottleneck as the founder, right?

[00:46:03] The way you behave is the way the entire team will behave.

[00:46:08] Your toxicity, your dysfunction, or your level of function will exist throughout the entire

[00:46:13] organization.

[00:46:14] The bar you hold yourself to will exist throughout the entire organization.

[00:46:18] Um, you know, the other thing is that for me, culture is the space between what you celebrate,

[00:46:25] inspire, and motivate and what you tolerate.

[00:46:27] Right.

[00:46:28] Um, so, and I, I, I love to lean towards what you inspire, motivate and celebrate.

[00:46:36] Right.

[00:46:36] Um, sometimes you have to deal with, you know, I'm not, we don't build a punitive culture

[00:46:42] around Nexus IT.

[00:46:43] Right.

[00:46:43] Um, we build a culture where people feel an abundance and flow where they can do awesome

[00:46:48] work.

[00:46:48] Right.

[00:46:48] But, but you have to set a clear bar.

[00:46:51] People have to know that again, if you're going to be part of an elite team, this is what

[00:46:55] it requires.

[00:46:56] Right.

[00:46:56] Um, and the team expects you, your colleagues expect you to show up and have their backs

[00:47:01] and have the clients backs and they expect to do the same.

[00:47:03] Right.

[00:47:03] Um, and that means that, you know, everybody's got KPIs they're performing to that they're

[00:47:07] reporting on every week.

[00:47:09] It's, you know, one of our core values is absolute ownership.

[00:47:12] Um, so you're given a, you're given a role, you're given duty, you're given stewardship

[00:47:16] and you're expected to show up and fulfill.

[00:47:19] Right.

[00:47:20] And you're expected to report on that.

[00:47:21] You are, you know, it's your ownership of your role to go to your, your manager every

[00:47:26] week and your one-on-one and say, okay, here's where I landed.

[00:47:29] Right.

[00:47:29] This is what I did.

[00:47:31] And if I missed the mark, you know, by a reasonable margin, you know, then I'm going

[00:47:37] to have a game plan of what I'm going to do.

[00:47:38] Correct.

[00:47:39] You know, that's absolute ownership.

[00:47:41] Not the manager saying, oh, here are your numbers last week.

[00:47:43] Right.

[00:47:44] By the way.

[00:47:45] Yeah.

[00:47:45] You know, your, your tickets are getting really old and, you know, um, uh, you know,

[00:47:50] you closed 70% of the tickets to the rest of the team.

[00:47:53] You know, what's going on.

[00:47:54] Right.

[00:47:54] It's now, if you want to be part of this team, you show up, you're accountable, you report

[00:47:59] on your performance.

[00:48:00] You have a game plan to fix if you're not, you know, if you're not performing.

[00:48:04] Um, and if that's not, you know, the type of environment you want to be in, because

[00:48:08] we want people to want to win and, you know, be successful with us.

[00:48:10] Um, you know, if that's not the type of environment you want to be in, then it's

[00:48:12] not the right fit for you here.

[00:48:14] Right.

[00:48:14] Um, so, um, beyond that, you know, it's, and I sound, you know, I sound like a, I'm

[00:48:20] a, I'm a whipcracker here, you know, um, Damian, and that's not the truth.

[00:48:24] We value people.

[00:48:25] We have good relationships.

[00:48:26] We have fun.

[00:48:27] You know, we celebrate a lot of things.

[00:48:29] We celebrate all these wins.

[00:48:30] We have quarterly, um, you know, reconnect kind of retreats together.

[00:48:34] We have a lot of, you know, culture support mechanisms.

[00:48:37] Our, our team's channels are hilarious.

[00:48:39] Right.

[00:48:39] All the, all the gifts and the, the banter and the stuff that goes on there.

[00:48:43] Right.

[00:48:43] Um, uh, we have all hands meetings every month and we celebrate things together.

[00:48:47] We toast together.

[00:48:49] Um, you know, we're, we're winning together and we're having a good time.

[00:48:52] Right.

[00:48:52] Um, and we support and celebrate the things that people do well.

[00:48:56] We have a core value shout out thread in our team's channel where, you know, anytime that

[00:49:00] somebody displays a core value, um, and one of our seven core values, you know, their,

[00:49:04] their colleagues can shout them out and say, Hey, Johnny did a really good job at, um,

[00:49:09] you know, at, um, extraordinary client service and solutions.

[00:49:12] And this is why here's the story.

[00:49:14] Boom, boom, boom, boom.

[00:49:15] Right.

[00:49:16] Every month, those get entered into a drawing at our all hands meeting.

[00:49:18] And then, you know, the person who shouted out so that, you know, randomize a drawing,

[00:49:23] the person who shouted out and the person who was shouted out, get a hundred dollar gift

[00:49:25] certificate each.

[00:49:26] Right.

[00:49:26] So we do things like that, um, just to support, you know, uh, good behavior in the organization

[00:49:31] again, celebrate the good behavior so that, you know, people know this is, this is the

[00:49:34] way we're supposed to show up.

[00:49:35] Um, I love that.

[00:49:37] Yeah.

[00:49:38] So you used an interesting word, uh, probably intentionally.

[00:49:42] I'm curious.

[00:49:43] You talked about not just ownership, but stewardship.

[00:49:46] Yeah.

[00:49:47] Yeah.

[00:49:47] Yeah.

[00:49:49] Um, I, I, I, I'm a firm believer, like if you are in, and as leaders here, you know,

[00:49:53] at Nexus IT, the, the, if you've accept the role of charge, right.

[00:49:58] Um, uh, and it's not as leaders, it's frontline contributors as well, but you know, for leaders

[00:50:03] specifically, you're accepting a charge to manage a team or to manage a function, to manage

[00:50:08] a business unit.

[00:50:09] Um, and, um, it's our expectation around here that you have absolute ownership of that.

[00:50:15] Um, you know exactly what's going on in that team or function all the time.

[00:50:19] You know where the strengths are, you know, where the gaps are, you know, why the gaps

[00:50:22] exist.

[00:50:23] You have a game plan to fix those gaps, right?

[00:50:25] It's not me.

[00:50:26] I should not be discovering the problems in your team, right?

[00:50:31] You're managing your team and your function.

[00:50:33] Um, and you should be coming to me and saying, Hey, look, I found a problem.

[00:50:38] Um, here's, here's my idea of how we solve it.

[00:50:41] Right.

[00:50:41] Um, and then I'm going to, you know, we're going to, we're going to, you know, have a

[00:50:44] collaborative discussion back and forth.

[00:50:46] I might help you tweak it.

[00:50:47] I might say, Hey, look, you got a really good handle on it.

[00:50:49] Go for it.

[00:50:50] Run.

[00:50:50] What do you need?

[00:50:51] What support do you need?

[00:50:52] What resources do you need?

[00:50:53] Do you need alignment across the team?

[00:50:55] Um, uh, and that's the thing, like if we miss, you know, so our, our leaders, you

[00:50:59] know, report monthly while they report weekly and monthly and quarterly, um, and annually.

[00:51:05] Um, but in our monthly leadership meetings, you know, they come in,

[00:51:08] and they report, um, uh, they report on, um, progress on performance on plans and quarterly

[00:51:17] on people.

[00:51:17] So quarterly, we do a nine box talent grading exercise to make sure that we're, we're helping

[00:51:23] our people advance in their careers.

[00:51:25] Um, and that we're, you know, um, uh, you know, um, building people, you know, as we're

[00:51:30] building the organization.

[00:51:32] So, um, in the plan section, you know, if you miss the mark, so you have monthly and

[00:51:37] quarterly, you know, targets, right.

[00:51:38] In performance, whether that's marketing or sales related, whether it's ops, you know,

[00:51:42] technical services delivery.

[00:51:44] If you miss the mark, you come in with a plan of how you're going to fix it.

[00:51:47] Right.

[00:51:48] That's, I mean, it's, it's your problem.

[00:51:50] You've taken ownership, right?

[00:51:52] So if you think about the book, extreme ownership by Jocko Willink, you know, the Navy

[00:51:55] seal fantastic book, very much adopting those principles within our culture and our organization

[00:52:02] of, uh, you've accepted a charge.

[00:52:04] You take a hundred percent ownership of what happens with the stewardship that you've been

[00:52:09] given.

[00:52:09] Right.

[00:52:09] Um, and some of that might be, Hey, you're, you're a bad CEO and I need a different support,

[00:52:15] you know, which I'm open to.

[00:52:17] We, we have, we have, um, we have anonymous culture feedback surveys, uh, you know, um,

[00:52:23] depending on the team and function monthly and or quarterly.

[00:52:26] And then all leaders have anonymous 360 degree feedback on a monthly basis.

[00:52:30] And so, um, you know, all the, I have stakeholders throughout the organization, the leaders and

[00:52:35] some frontline contributors that on a monthly basis, tell me what I'm doing well and where

[00:52:40] my opportunities for improvement are.

[00:52:41] Right.

[00:52:41] And so I, I'm committed to, you know, receiving that information with an open mind, standing

[00:52:47] back from my ego, not having, you know, emotionally regulating, not having, you know, trigger traumas,

[00:52:51] you know, um, with that stuff and going and looking in the mirror and going, okay,

[00:52:55] I am diminishing the people experience and thereby the client experience through this

[00:53:01] blind spot of mine or this weakness of mine.

[00:53:03] And so I'll, I'll intentionally with my coaches work on that stuff.

[00:53:07] Right.

[00:53:07] I'll say, okay, here's what the team's identified that I need to work on as a CEO.

[00:53:11] And this is, I expect this from all the rest of our leaders as well.

[00:53:13] Right.

[00:53:14] Um, you know, that, um, if the team has said, Hey, I'm having a hard time showing up and

[00:53:19] doing my job and to the best of my degree, because you're doing something as a leader

[00:53:22] that's undermining that.

[00:53:23] Right.

[00:53:24] Um, being real about that, you know, that's your stewardship.

[00:53:28] You got, you got to fix it.

[00:53:30] Yeah.

[00:53:30] Yeah.

[00:53:31] I love that.

[00:53:32] I want to also talk about, or ask you to talk about, I love that you said, you know,

[00:53:38] get your strategic advisor if you're considering M&A and, you know, CFO didn't surprise me.

[00:53:43] Although a lot of people are not prepared in that way to enter a deal room and all the

[00:53:47] things that come with that.

[00:53:48] And it will be a big distraction like you talked about.

[00:53:50] Um, but what really got me was the CPO, right?

[00:53:54] Very few people, uh, even at scale often invest in a chief people officer and even fewer, it

[00:54:01] seems like, especially when it's done poorly, assess the talent.

[00:54:06] Yet you said, we're a people business.

[00:54:08] We're a people business.

[00:54:09] I totally get it.

[00:54:10] Yep.

[00:54:11] How are we only, you know, how is it that the maybe stereotypical, uh, acquisition, all

[00:54:18] they do is look at the financial metrics.

[00:54:21] Finance is compliant and legal.

[00:54:22] Yeah.

[00:54:23] Right.

[00:54:24] Yeah.

[00:54:24] Yeah.

[00:54:25] Why?

[00:54:25] Why is that the case?

[00:54:27] You have any idea?

[00:54:27] What are we doing here?

[00:54:29] Right.

[00:54:29] In our industry again.

[00:54:30] And look, there are businesses where there are industries and businesses where there's

[00:54:35] a legitimate argument for that.

[00:54:36] Right.

[00:54:37] Like you're strategically acquiring some technology.

[00:54:39] You're not that interested in the client book or the team, you know, that, that was like,

[00:54:43] you know, um, uh, Oracle's, you know, sort of, uh, model, right.

[00:54:47] Um, they, they would, it was just, we want the technology.

[00:54:51] Um, you know, we're not that interested in retaining and, and like in the B2B SaaS world,

[00:54:56] I think that the average is, um, on client books that are retained, uh, you know, post

[00:55:00] MNA, it's like 20% of the client book.

[00:55:02] Right.

[00:55:03] Um, which in our industry, that's abhorrent.

[00:55:05] You're, you're, you know, you are losing all the revenue.

[00:55:08] So, I mean, we aim to retain 95% of the people and the clients.

[00:55:12] Um, that's, you know, that's our aim in an MNA transaction.

[00:55:16] Um, and you know, of course in our industry, it makes no sense.

[00:55:20] You know, if you're losing 80 or 70%, the deal doesn't pencil out.

[00:55:23] It's not going to be financially sustainable.

[00:55:26] Right.

[00:55:26] Um, yeah.

[00:55:27] Um, so chief people officer.

[00:55:30] When did you, when did you realize you needed to, was that always something?

[00:55:35] When did you realize you needed to people officer?

[00:55:37] Because it seems obvious when you say it, but I don't see it happening.

[00:55:41] Yeah.

[00:55:42] Um, it's a strategic decision, right?

[00:55:44] Um, it is recognizing that our product is people and the way that we win is creating

[00:55:50] a culture and an environment where our people can succeed, right?

[00:55:53] Where they can do the best work of their career.

[00:55:55] And so, um, beyond that, our chief people officer, you know, in his career, having been,

[00:56:00] you know, run businesses for Okie, for Kodak, for HP, and been a startup CEO multiple times,

[00:56:05] he's done dozens of MNA transactions.

[00:56:07] Our CFO has done about 200 in his career.

[00:56:09] Um, and, you know, the chief people officer, of course, he brings to, to the table, not only,

[00:56:15] um, the culture, you know, development and people management, you know, people growth sort

[00:56:23] of, you know, background.

[00:56:23] Um, he also brings to the table understanding and knowing how leadership teams and cultures

[00:56:30] can mesh together or not in an MNA transaction.

[00:56:33] Again, we're not, we're not holding right now subsidiary organizations.

[00:56:35] We are integrating a hundred percent.

[00:56:38] Our, you know, teams that were part of, you know, requisition in the past are part of our

[00:56:41] team today.

[00:56:42] Right.

[00:56:42] Um, and so, um, uh, you know, we, we, we have to take it into that fact, that's where

[00:56:48] we start our MNA process, Damon.

[00:56:50] We start just talking about the DNA, you know, the psychological makeup of those founders of

[00:56:57] that business, right?

[00:56:58] Um, doesn't match.

[00:57:00] And, and certainly a diverse, an organization that brings diverse voices to the table is going

[00:57:06] to be more successful, but do you at least have commonalities in your worldviews?

[00:57:11] Can you at least do business together and do so in a unified constructive way towards the

[00:57:18] same vision and mission, right?

[00:57:19] Because if you can't, the MNA is going to fail.

[00:57:22] Um, you're, you're going to have a massive problem on your hands.

[00:57:25] Um, so we start there, you know, does, does the mindset of these leaders match our mindset?

[00:57:31] Does their DNA match our, our DNA, you know, do their core values as individuals, as people,

[00:57:38] do they align with our core values as people and as our organization?

[00:57:42] It doesn't have to be perfect alignment, but is, is it close enough, right?

[00:57:45] And is the culture that they built in their organization, is it close to, you know, to

[00:57:49] our culture?

[00:57:49] We're not looking to go turn around poor performing MSPs that have a culture that enable

[00:57:54] poor behavior, right?

[00:57:56] That's, that's, it's too much work.

[00:57:58] We've done it.

[00:57:59] It's way too much work and it's, it's not worth the investment.

[00:58:02] Um, so we're looking for, we're looking for awesome MSPs that are doing great, you know,

[00:58:07] great work.

[00:58:08] You know, there are 4 million, there are 5 million a year, you know, there are 7 million

[00:58:11] a year and, um, they, they're not sure how to graduate to that next phase.

[00:58:16] Right.

[00:58:16] Um, and they've built a good operationally refined organization.

[00:58:20] You know, the financial outcomes are lining up, they're growing.

[00:58:23] They probably don't have the growth engines we have.

[00:58:26] Damon, we're performing at 93.3% growth rate per year right now.

[00:58:31] We're, we're almost doubling in size every year right now.

[00:58:35] Um, um, so, um, you know, and that's, that's where we add value.

[00:58:39] You know, we can go to an MSP, you know, owner or owners and say, Hey, look, we're going to

[00:58:43] give you some sanity.

[00:58:45] We're going to give you some of your time back.

[00:58:46] We're going to take that stuff off your plate that you don't like to do.

[00:58:48] We're going to find a role for you that really fulfills you.

[00:58:51] Right.

[00:58:51] Um, uh, we're going to take fantastic care of your clients and your people.

[00:58:56] Um, and we're going to help you build, you know, um, generational wealth over time.

[00:59:00] Um, you know, uh, and, um, you know, we're, we're, we're looking forward to like, you know,

[00:59:07] um, doing some really cool things and building, you know, a really amazing organization together.

[00:59:12] And that's just it.

[00:59:12] I think like a decade ago, we didn't have vision for building these really awesome MSPs,

[00:59:19] you know, and I think that, I mean, certainly a lot of what we built at Nexus IT comes from

[00:59:25] B2B SaaS, um, you know, playbooks, you know, we're surrounded by this ecosystem that, you

[00:59:30] know, the number two, um, B2B SaaS ecosystem in the United States right now.

[00:59:35] Right.

[00:59:35] We're surrounded by this ecosystem of venture-backed tech.

[00:59:38] That is like, we get to see, you know, the playbooks and the way they're, they're building.

[00:59:42] And a lot of those founders are friends of ours, you know, we're able to connect with them

[00:59:45] and learn in the ways that they're building.

[00:59:47] Right.

[00:59:47] And, and we get to, you know, have this bigger vision of what you can do with an MSP, how

[00:59:52] you can innovate, how you can disrupt.

[00:59:54] Um, I don't know if I answered your last question or not there, but.

[00:59:57] No, no.

[00:59:58] I love that.

[00:59:58] I love how you're, I mean, if nothing else, right.

[01:00:02] One of the takeaways I got was most people looking at the books and then you can, two,

[01:00:09] 10 person or a hundred person MSP, whatever size you are, but a 10 person MSP both doing

[01:00:15] 2 million, even if they have similar margin or EBITDA, they get a very different culture,

[01:00:21] very different levels of toxicity, lack of operational maturity and SOPs.

[01:00:27] They can be night and day differences.

[01:00:30] And, you know, as you alluded to, like if you're having to fix culture, that's a big difference.

[01:00:36] Yep.

[01:00:36] Uh, and so I love that, you know, you start with the chief people officer.

[01:00:40] Uh, I've, I've not just in the MSP space.

[01:00:43] I've seen too many other acquisitions where there's little to no regard to the people, which

[01:00:49] is ironic in a people business.

[01:00:51] Right.

[01:00:51] And so I think, uh, you know, you may be setting the bar, but I imagine eventually that others

[01:00:59] will figure that out too.

[01:01:00] Um, it's one of the things we're doing to innovate and disrupt and I'm sharing it openly.

[01:01:03] Like it's, I want our business, I want our industry to thrive, you know, Damon, our, our

[01:01:08] mission is to elevate it.

[01:01:10] And, and like, that's just it.

[01:01:12] Like, you know, MSP is oftentimes, and I know in this market, a lot of MSPs get a bad rap

[01:01:17] and they do because they don't deliver.

[01:01:20] Right.

[01:01:20] Um, and, and I don't want that to be, you know, I don't want that to be, um, the reputation

[01:01:26] of our industry.

[01:01:27] Like I want to, I know it's go ahead.

[01:01:32] I think we don't deliver to both stakeholders.

[01:01:35] Yeah.

[01:01:35] Maybe we don't live the client, but we also don't live in the employee because sometimes

[01:01:38] I've talked to some that are a little short sighted owners and they're delivering to the

[01:01:43] clients at the expense of their team.

[01:01:45] Yeah.

[01:01:46] Yeah.

[01:01:46] And that's not going to work very long.

[01:01:48] Yeah.

[01:01:49] And that, that is a hard balance to strike in this industry.

[01:01:51] And I, I'll just be transparent that with scale, that's a luxury you create, right?

[01:01:56] Um, it was a smaller team, you know, when you're, when you're four, when you're six,

[01:01:59] when you're eight, you know, giving everybody some sanity and, you know, like balance schedules

[01:02:05] when you have to be on, you know, on call 24 seven, right.

[01:02:08] It is hard.

[01:02:09] You know, today, you know, we have a weekend shift, we have an early morning shift, we have

[01:02:13] a swing shift, um, you know, so we, we've given people balance, um, you know, without

[01:02:17] having to be on, on call 24 seven, that costs us more money.

[01:02:20] You know, um, their investments we've made, but their investments we've made into our people's

[01:02:24] sanity, you know, their investments we've made into the, into their balance in life, which,

[01:02:29] you know, even if you're in a, in an IT team and a fortune 500 company, you're going to be

[01:02:35] on the clock, you know, 24 seven, you're going to be, you know, expected to be on call 24

[01:02:39] seven, right.

[01:02:40] At least just some sort of rotation or whatever.

[01:02:42] Um, and granted we have a, we have an escalation path of, of on call, but usually the frontline,

[01:02:49] you know, shifts that are assigned to after hour shifts, you know, they, they take care of

[01:02:55] like 95% of tickets and every now and again, they have to go to a senior engineer, you know,

[01:02:59] that to resolve some server outage or there's some, you know, there's some breach

[01:03:02] attempt or something like that.

[01:03:04] Right.

[01:03:04] Um, but yeah, we've taken a very methodical approach to like, you know, what, what, what

[01:03:09] matters to our people, um, you know, and how do we, how do we know that they're valued by

[01:03:14] this organization?

[01:03:15] Um, and we've made very intentional investments into them and into the, into building all that.

[01:03:19] Yeah.

[01:03:20] I love that.

[01:03:21] Cause I mean, if all you're trying to do is a short-term optimization, optimization to EBITDA,

[01:03:26] right.

[01:03:26] You could really crank those numbers and be much thinner on staff and much more of a

[01:03:32] overwhelming the people.

[01:03:33] You could be a sweatshop.

[01:03:35] EBITDA would go up and then, but then churn would go up and of employees and then clients,

[01:03:40] right.

[01:03:40] All those things.

[01:03:42] Um, I want to, I want to switch gears for a minute and ask you some of the questions.

[01:03:45] I want to make sure that ask every, uh, I want to, I want to get your input.

[01:03:50] What's, what's your biggest lesson?

[01:03:54] Boy, that's a, that's a big loaded question.

[01:03:59] Um, what's my biggest lesson?

[01:04:01] Um, I think my biggest lesson as, as a founder, as a CEO, you know, as a, as an MSP owner

[01:04:09] is, um, you need, and this does come from my chief people officer, you know, my CEO coach,

[01:04:15] believe in your story.

[01:04:16] Don't drink your own Kool-Aid.

[01:04:17] Um, you know, um, have enough presence of awareness and lack of ego to, um, you know,

[01:04:26] to know that, um, you aren't all that right.

[01:04:30] Uh, like stay grounded, stay humble.

[01:04:33] You know, you're just a part of the team and you know, you're an important part of the team

[01:04:37] and they're, they're an important part of the team as well.

[01:04:40] Right.

[01:04:40] Um, and, um, you know, the more you can, you can have good, deep connections with your

[01:04:46] people, you can value them.

[01:04:48] You can value their, their families.

[01:04:49] Like Damon, it means a lot to me to be able to employ people, to provide livings for their

[01:04:54] families, to be able to pay for kids, soccer and dance and colleges.

[01:04:58] You know, um, we, we take that stuff seriously.

[01:05:00] Right.

[01:05:01] Um, and, um, and so, yeah, I mean, just coming back around, stay grounded, stay humble,

[01:05:07] you know, even with success, like, you know, you're just another human being.

[01:05:12] And in the end, in the end, we all end up, you know, six feet under.

[01:05:16] Right.

[01:05:17] Um, and, and we don't take the money with us.

[01:05:19] So, um, you know, the money can create other opportunities and experiences in this life.

[01:05:25] And that's another thing I'm not about, I'm not about collecting material possessions.

[01:05:29] I'm about collecting experiences.

[01:05:30] Um, that's the, I guess, you know, call it the, the philosophical Buddha, you know, Buddhist

[01:05:35] minimalist in me.

[01:05:36] Um, you know, um, but, uh, anyways, just, you know, stay grounded.

[01:05:42] Make sure you believe that your team knows, you believe that you have a real vision that,

[01:05:47] you know, you believe in them and yourself to be able to execute and deliver on that vision.

[01:05:52] But, but don't get too caught up in your own story of hype.

[01:05:55] You have to spin a story of hype to build that trusted advisor persona.

[01:05:59] That's part of these awards.

[01:06:00] That's part.

[01:06:01] And it's part of giving the team an opportunity to win, to celebrate, to say, man, we worked

[01:06:05] our asses off for the other year and look what we did.

[01:06:08] Like we did some really cool stuff, right?

[01:06:09] Our team's proud of what they're doing.

[01:06:11] But at the same time, we're grounded and we know we have a lot of work to do.

[01:06:16] Like we're not there yet.

[01:06:17] We haven't arrived and nor have you as a leader or an individual, you know?

[01:06:22] I love that.

[01:06:23] I love that.

[01:06:24] If you had one thing to do over, do differently, what would that be?

[01:06:31] Um, I've thought about this before.

[01:06:32] I think, um, the first decade of being an entrepreneur was rough.

[01:06:37] I went from being, you know, a civil engineer to being an IT engineer to running a business.

[01:06:44] Um, you know, and I was in, I was in college full time, had a family, you know, I was 23.

[01:06:51] Um, I, if I've had something to do over again, I would have got into industry for three to

[01:06:56] five years, learned the industry, worked my way through some ranks, you know, and then

[01:07:01] made the transition into entrepreneurship because I got the shit kicked out of me for the first

[01:07:06] decade.

[01:07:06] You know, um, you know, uh, I made a lot of mistakes and financially it was rough.

[01:07:12] You know, I mean, I, I ended up in bankruptcy, you know, um, 27, 28 years old, you know, um,

[01:07:18] you know, um, you know, um, you know, I, I didn't, I didn't know the first thing about

[01:07:22] managing personal finances, let alone business finances.

[01:07:25] Right.

[01:07:25] And we had, we had some fraud that came along, you know, that, um, so we had some fraud and

[01:07:30] some embezzlement that came along that stuck us with, you know, um, uh, some six figure,

[01:07:35] you know, debt and, um, and, uh, you know, I had, I had to declare bankruptcy, you know?

[01:07:41] Um, so had I had the opportunity to go learn the industry and business more, you know, I've

[01:07:47] had to learn a lot of hard business lessons, the hard way that I could have learned within

[01:07:52] the ranks.

[01:07:52] Cause I went like, I had barely had any sort of, you know, real corporate job, you know?

[01:07:58] I mean, I was working full time, but I was working full time in civil engineering, small

[01:08:02] civil engineering firms, like of six people, 12 people, you know, I hadn't learned business

[01:08:07] in any way whatsoever.

[01:08:08] So I went to the school of hard knocks for that and I'd probably change that.

[01:08:12] Yeah.

[01:08:15] What's a common myth about running an MSP that you'd like to debunk?

[01:08:22] Um, uh, you know, I, I think that, uh, this may be a little unconventional.

[01:08:27] Um, uh, predominantly the language I hear by MSP owners around the country is very negative

[01:08:36] about their experiences, MSP owners and operators.

[01:08:40] Um, uh, it is a challenging industry.

[01:08:43] It can own you.

[01:08:44] Um, there is no doubt it can own your time, your, your family time, your personal time.

[01:08:50] Um, and, you know, building people operations and dealing with clients in a space that is

[01:08:58] potentially, um, uh, predisposition, sorry, predispositioned against you, you know, because

[01:09:05] technology is imperfect.

[01:09:06] And oftentimes we're in the crosshairs.

[01:09:08] Sometimes we're at fault.

[01:09:09] Sometimes we're not at fault.

[01:09:10] It's the technology.

[01:09:11] Um, but the client doesn't know how to differentiate.

[01:09:14] Either way.

[01:09:14] Yeah.

[01:09:15] Yeah.

[01:09:15] They don't know how to differentiate that.

[01:09:16] If you go down, you get hacked.

[01:09:18] It's, it's like, it doesn't matter that somebody opened up that dumb email with the UPS, you

[01:09:22] know, attachment and got, you know, got the organization hacked.

[01:09:25] It's your fault.

[01:09:25] Right.

[01:09:27] Um, so predominantly, I think that I hear a lot of, uh, of negative self-talk in the

[01:09:33] industry as you, as I go to conferences and, you know, peer groups and all that kind of

[01:09:37] stuff.

[01:09:37] The myths I'd like to debunk is you can have a hell of a lot of fun.

[01:09:40] You can build an awesome organization.

[01:09:41] You can build a good organization that does good work.

[01:09:44] We're retaining 98% of our clients.

[01:09:47] 98% CSAT, right?

[01:09:49] Like we're doing good work that our clients appreciate.

[01:09:52] And you feel like read our reviews and stuff.

[01:09:54] I mean, we have some glowing accolades out there, right?

[01:09:57] Um, and our team, same sort of feedback, you know, it's mindset.

[01:10:03] Damien, the way you choose that the negative self-talk you give yourself is going to manifest

[01:10:08] the experience that you have.

[01:10:09] Right.

[01:10:10] If you talk to yourself about, I'm building an awesome business, I'm adding real value.

[01:10:13] We're doing meaningful work for our clients.

[01:10:15] We're creating meaningful outcomes for our people.

[01:10:17] We're creating meaningful outcomes for ourself.

[01:10:19] We're on a mission.

[01:10:20] We're doing awesome stuff.

[01:10:21] Right.

[01:10:21] Um, and, and we're building a good thriving organization that becomes your reality.

[01:10:25] Right.

[01:10:26] Uh, and, and that isn't a hundred percent truth all the time.

[01:10:29] Of course not.

[01:10:29] That, you know, life is never perfect.

[01:10:30] Right.

[01:10:31] But the more you aim for it, the more it becomes your reality.

[01:10:33] And that is more and more our reality today.

[01:10:35] So the, the, your mindset matters, right?

[01:10:39] Yeah.

[01:10:39] The story you tell yourself about it.

[01:10:42] Obviously I'm inclined to agree with that.

[01:10:44] Yeah.

[01:10:44] Yeah.

[01:10:44] Um, was there a turning point on mindset for you or, or something that you believe?

[01:10:51] Yeah.

[01:10:51] Yeah.

[01:10:52] Um, I, I think I had that, that epiphany, you know, early on in my, my solopreneur, you

[01:10:59] know, journey 12 years ago, as I started to go to some, and actually MSP, you know, boot

[01:11:04] camps, right.

[01:11:04] Uh, some of our industry conferences and stuff like that, cause I started to go to some of

[01:11:08] those three-year conferences and I started to hear some of the motivational speakers,

[01:11:12] you know, and get exposed to, you know, some, uh, some of the, you know, thought leaders

[01:11:15] out there like, okay, these, these people are thinking different than me.

[01:11:19] I'm thinking like a loser, right.

[01:11:20] I'm thinking like a loser.

[01:11:21] They're thinking like winners.

[01:11:22] And what do I got to do to shift and change and be in those shoes?

[01:11:26] Right.

[01:11:27] Um, so, um, yeah, it was about 12 years ago, you know, and, and we'd built a decent company

[01:11:33] to that point, you know, my brother and I, um, you know, uh, we'd grown quite well, you

[01:11:38] know, by word of mouth.

[01:11:39] Um, we had a good reputation, you know, we were in a smaller market at that time and a,

[01:11:44] in a mountain ski community in Park City.

[01:11:46] And we, we were the dominant force there at that time, you know, um, uh, you know, so

[01:11:53] we, we'd done quite well, but, um, it was graduating, you know, that, um, just realizing

[01:11:58] like getting real with myself of, uh, I'm self-defeating on very, on many levels.

[01:12:03] And much, most of that is the story I'm telling myself, my limiting beliefs, the bullshit that

[01:12:07] I say, you know, to myself in my head with this monkey, you know, hamster wheel that goes

[01:12:12] around all the time.

[01:12:13] Right.

[01:12:13] Uh, uh, the monkey mind, you know, a Buddhist call it.

[01:12:17] Right.

[01:12:17] Um, uh, so if you can get that, that monkey mind, that hamster wheel, you know, to start

[01:12:22] spinning positive narrative, um, you know, about yourself, about your team, about your

[01:12:26] clients, about your, your industry, about, you know, your, your growth prospects and

[01:12:31] the vision and mission, you know, um, you'll start to manifest that reality.

[01:12:35] Right.

[01:12:36] Uh, I love that.

[01:12:38] Yeah.

[01:12:38] I love that.

[01:12:40] What's something you're looking forward to with all the, all that's going on in your business,

[01:12:44] all the growth, all the change, all the things you've changed your mindset around.

[01:12:47] There's so much going on.

[01:12:48] I'm curious, what's one of the things you're looking forward to?

[01:12:51] Classified.

[01:12:55] We'll be doing.

[01:12:56] What's one thing you can share?

[01:12:59] Um, let's see.

[01:13:01] What's one thing I'm looking forward to, um, in business?

[01:13:04] Uh, I mean, we, we, we're working on some big stuff, Damien.

[01:13:07] And then again, I'm telling you that, you know, we're, we're talking to multiple colleagues

[01:13:10] right now about, you know, bringing them on with our organization and stuff like that

[01:13:14] in, in regional markets.

[01:13:15] You know, I'm, I'm looking forward to that.

[01:13:17] Um, you know, um, I'm looking forward to, uh, we've had, we've had a, you know, a very

[01:13:23] ambitious strategic plan, um, that we've, you know, we've, we've been executing for the

[01:13:28] last number of years.

[01:13:29] Um, with the current market conditions, we'd slowed that quite a bit.

[01:13:33] Again, we haven't done M&A for two years.

[01:13:35] It getting banked at hasn't been the right instrument at the moment with, you know, interest

[01:13:39] rates where they're at.

[01:13:41] So I'm, I'm, I'm really looking forward to getting back to, you know, building not only

[01:13:45] our organic, you know, growth engines, but the inorganic and, or, and really executing

[01:13:50] on the long-term strategic plan of becoming that super regional juggernaut.

[01:13:54] Um, that's, you know, that's where my, my focus and my energy and, you know, my, um, you

[01:13:59] know, that's, what's fueling me right now.

[01:14:01] That's where my purpose is at.

[01:14:02] Yeah.

[01:14:03] Yeah.

[01:14:04] Doing that without private equity is just a whole nother level of, uh, of challenge

[01:14:09] there.

[01:14:09] Not easy.

[01:14:10] Not easy.

[01:14:11] Yeah.

[01:14:11] Well, you were kind enough to share some books already, but what's the number one book you

[01:14:16] would recommend to anybody listening, uh, building NMSP and getting their mindset right?

[01:14:22] What, what, what, what book stands out to you?

[01:14:25] That's a really good question.

[01:14:27] Um, let me think about that.

[01:14:30] You know, I think one of my favorite business books of all time is, um, winner's dream by,

[01:14:36] um, by Bill McDermott.

[01:14:38] Bill was, uh, you know, CEO of SAP for some time.

[01:14:43] Um, it's a very inspiring story.

[01:14:45] You know, uh, Bill grew up, you know, lower class, um, uh, in new England.

[01:14:50] I'm trying to remember if it was like Philadelphia or if it was in New York, I forget.

[01:14:53] But anyways, grew up with a, you know, maybe lower middle-class family, um, you know, didn't

[01:14:59] grow up with privilege and, you know, um, really taught himself to apply himself to have

[01:15:05] a winning mindset.

[01:15:06] He was a salesman, right.

[01:15:07] Um, taught himself to sell, work his self, you know, wake up way, way up through the ranks

[01:15:12] and ultimately became, you know, CEO of a global, you know, a global 100 organization.

[01:15:18] Right.

[01:15:19] Um, uh, it's, it's a very inspiring story.

[01:15:21] And just, you know, um, I, I really identify with, with, with, um, with Bill's story and

[01:15:26] the way he shares it is very grounded, humble, down to earth.

[01:15:30] Um, you know, very relatable, uh, as a, as a person, even as a global CEO.

[01:15:35] Right.

[01:15:36] Um, so I, I, I really liked that book.

[01:15:39] I definitely recommend it to everybody.

[01:15:40] Um, Winner's Dream by Bill McDermott.

[01:15:42] Yeah.

[01:15:43] Winner's Dream by Bill McDermott.

[01:15:44] That's awesome.

[01:15:45] Yeah.

[01:15:45] Um, well, I would love to talk to you all day, but you have a busy MSP to grow.

[01:15:51] Uh, thank you so much for being here, Earl.

[01:15:53] Um, and if you don't mind share how should folks listening reach out to you, what's the best

[01:16:00] way to find you on the socials, connect with you?

[01:16:02] Yeah.

[01:16:02] What do you recommend?

[01:16:03] Yeah.

[01:16:04] LinkedIn is where I'm most active.

[01:16:05] Um, so just look up Earl foot Nexus IT on LinkedIn.

[01:16:08] Um, quite a bit on Instagram as well.

[01:16:10] Uh, I'm base slapping CEO on, uh, on, on Instagram.

[01:16:15] Um, a little bit, you know, a little bit fun, uh, there, you know, um, not, not all professional.

[01:16:19] Yeah.

[01:16:20] Uh, I do play bass in a band, uh, in a rock band with tech execs and tech founders.

[01:16:24] Right.

[01:16:24] But, um, 90 proof, 90 proof.

[01:16:27] You got it right.

[01:16:28] All right.

[01:16:28] Got to plug 90 proof.

[01:16:29] Yeah.

[01:16:31] Yep.

[01:16:31] Um, so, uh, that, that's, you know, that's the best way I have a podcast as well called

[01:16:36] tech beat where leaders learn and innovate and grow.

[01:16:38] And I interview other founders basically, you know, I love founder stories.

[01:16:42] I love those, those early beginnings is like childhood and formative years.

[01:16:47] And then how do you become a founder and then sharing your greatest growth, greatest

[01:16:51] growth stories, right.

[01:16:52] And endless lessons.

[01:16:53] So that's what tech beats all about.

[01:16:55] Um, so you can look that up.

[01:16:56] It's on all major podcast platforms as well.

[01:16:59] Awesome.

[01:17:00] We'll find the fundamental LinkedIn, find them on, uh, his podcast or find them at the

[01:17:07] latest cool gig playing, uh, with 90 proof.

[01:17:11] So, um, thank you so much for being here.

[01:17:13] It has been my honor and pleasure.

[01:17:15] Thanks Damon.

[01:17:16] It's been a lot of fun.

[01:17:17] It's been a lot of fun.