Why This MSP Cut Half Their Clients

[00:00:00] We cut our client base in half from 2017-2018, very deliberately cut our client base in half. And it was really hard. It was really hard. But looked at it and said, hey, you know what? These clients aren't a good fit for us. Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset, founder and CEO of Servocity. Today, I get the pleasure to interview Mike Jackson.

[00:00:29] Most people think you need to be a tech or even a super tech to build your MSP. Mike bought a business without a technical background and ended up being in the top 500 MSPs in seven years. I think that shows you you don't have to be the super tech to build a top 500 MSP and to build it in record time. If you'd like to learn how he did that, the mistakes he made along the way, and how culture is the real differentiator,

[00:00:59] make sure to join us. Mike, you came to be an MSP from an interesting way and an interesting background. Tell me about that. Yeah. So ultimately, I think the crux is that I'm not the standard MSP owner and that I'm not natively a technician. So, you know, my original background was in, I guess, my degrees in finance and that's where I originally started.

[00:01:24] And then I worked for a large healthcare IT company here in Kansas City for, I guess, nine years or so. And in a couple of different areas there. First of all, I was implementing software systems into hospitals and as a consultant. Then I was in operations a little bit of different areas. And so, you know, I think the, you know, a lot of times we see the standard MSP owner is that technician who starts fixing a couple of computers.

[00:01:52] And then all of a sudden has a couple of employees and, oh my God, I got to maybe sell something. That wasn't really my natural path here. It was more from a, you know, when I started looking out at different opportunities, I guess that, you know, getting back. I always, I knew I wanted to own my own business. So that's always something that's really been interesting to me, excited to be. I grew up in an entrepreneurial environment and lifestyle.

[00:02:17] And two, that knew that in reality, being an entrepreneur wasn't just about playing golf and having cocktails. So, you know, contrary to many times the belief. But as I knew, you know, it's not a part of what's required and the risk, but then also the satisfaction and the opportunity to be able to go and pave your own way and kind of form your own path there and everything. So I started looking out at opportunities and the MSP and really, I guess at the time, it was more break fix.

[00:02:47] It was kind of on that bubble a little bit there, but that was, it was an interesting opportunity at the time. So, yeah, definitely came about in a different way. So, help me understand a little bit more. What events happened that made you say now is the time and how did you become an MSP? So, you know, the events of now is the time, I guess that the short answer is that, you know, there's never a good time to do anything.

[00:03:15] And by that, I mean, so as I mentioned, I was with, you know, previous company, I was with fantastic company. But I was traveling like crazy. So I had responsibility for, you know, on the professional services side, a couple of countries in South America, primarily Mexico and Chile. And so while that's amazing and sounds amazing and it was incredible and, you know, weekends at Buenaviris and different things like that, you know, in Patagonia, it was awesome.

[00:03:43] I was also traveling like crazy. So I think it was, I think I look back, it was January to June of 2011. And I think I traveled like 80,000 miles in that six-month period, sleeping on planes four or five nights a month, which I wouldn't trade for the world. I really wouldn't because it was such an incredible experience. The same time, my wife's pregnant with our firstborn and I had gone back to school to get my MBA.

[00:04:09] And so at that time, I started looking at what made sense, what else was out there. And in reality, my wife had her own business on the side. And I was a quote-unquote CFO for that business, which meant nothing whatsoever. But I was looking for some tax forms and came across a company that was an existing IT provider. And it was a B2B IT that was for sale. It was a one-person organization.

[00:04:37] And so I pinged the guy and rode the broker. And eight weeks later, closed on the business and closed on the asset acquisition of those contracts. But ultimately, you know, at that time, I didn't know. I had to analyze the industry. I had to analyze the business and all those different things. And back to, you know, the finance side of me, I had spreadsheets like crazy. So, and I remember talking, I actually went to my dad at that point. And I was saying, you know, it's like, I've got all these different things going on.

[00:05:06] Like, you know, we're getting ready to have our first child and X, Y, Z, all these things. And saying, you know, I don't know if now's the right time. And he said, he goes, there'll never be a great time to do anything. You know? And so he says, if you believe in your heart, now's the right time. He said, if, you know, if we go fast forward a year, your kid, now my son, is going to be about six months old. And you will just finish your MBA and you're going to retire from that.

[00:05:32] He said, so if you believe this is the right path, you know, find a reason to make it happen. And I did. And I know I would, you know, I never looked back. However, you know, the key point, one of the points there is, as I mentioned, I had these spreadsheets like crazy. And all this, all this market analysis and because that's part of what I'd done a little bit on the previous company in terms of analyzing different markets that we were going to go into. And so I love that, love that piece and still do love that piece of the business.

[00:06:00] And so getting here and really on about the second day, I realized I was like, man, like I screwed up. I had no idea about this business. So I had no idea what was going on. No idea which way was up. And in a little bit of a, you know, fit of fury, just deleted the spreadsheets completely. And I was like, I'm starting over from scratch and just dug in and then just kind of figured it out from there. And it was an awesome experience.

[00:06:25] You know, I think the opportunity to go and start something, start a business is one of the most incredible opportunities. It's one of the greatest challenges in the world, but it's got it's an awesome opportunity. Hey guys, Damian here. As I continue to interview the top MSPs in the world, one thing has become incredibly clear. It's time that we let go.

[00:06:47] Even more than that, every time I focus on my zone of genius and get out of the way and do the very few things I'm good at and delegate to others, I'm ready for that next level of growth. So if you're ready for that next level of growth, one way that I could help you is with Servocity. We co-manage your backups and disaster recovery so you can focus on what you do best. Let us do the rest.

[00:07:13] And then what we do is we test the backups every single day so you never have to worry. If you'd like to learn more, click the link below. I'm curious, what did the market analysis guy and the spreadsheets tell you about starting this or this industry? Yeah. And so at the time, and this is 2011, so managed services is really starting to become a thing. And obviously there was managed services companies going back a long time, but it was really starting to become more popular.

[00:07:41] And I identified, hey, this is, I love this business model. It makes sense from multiple different perspectives. A, of what it can do for the client. And obviously on the other side, from the business perspective, and so saw that as a really good opportunity. Again, you know, and some of the things that are true today are true back then, true, you know, 13, 14 years ago in terms of, you know, the need that those small businesses have.

[00:08:10] That's really our focus is the small, medium-sized business. So those are, you know, those were true back then in terms of what they need and being able to provide some of that technology strategy and support to them that they need. Even more so today. But, you know, a lot of the analysis, if I were to do it all over again, a lot of the analysis that I did back then would probably still be the same today. What's our target market look like? What's that need? What's that opportunity? Now, did I know much? No, I didn't whatsoever.

[00:08:36] So I was clueless, to say the least. But, you know, I think that exercise to do was really effective. And then the exercise, again, after I really got into it and some of those late nights and said, okay, now knowing what I know and knowing truly what we do. Again, back to me not being a tech guy and not really being able to fix that much, to be honest with you, was a good exercise to take. And then doing that again over the course of time as our business evolved.

[00:09:05] Because I think you, to a certain degree, you've got to continue to do that analysis throughout. The business you are when I was one person, it was just me, is different than that five-person business, that 10-person business, that 100-person business. You know, you have different phases of the course of time in your business, just like you do in your life. You know, 10-year-old me is different than, you know, me post-college versus me with two kids now. So you have those different phases in life, which is similar to a business, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:36] What was about the analysis or the opportunity that drove you to get into managed services business versus, I mean, there's so many markets, so many businesses? There are a lot of different markets and businesses. You know, while I'm not a tech by trade, I love technology and always have. And so I was naturally gravitated towards that.

[00:09:59] And so what I looked at was the ability to have the technical side of it and ultimately what I think technology can do for businesses. And combine that with the opportunity to, you know, from the operations side, the finance side, and sales and marketing to be able to combine those two.

[00:10:22] So I think, you know, if I got into other industries, I think it would probably always kind of come back to technology in a certain way. Because I, again, this is 2011. Now sitting here in 2024 with, you know, the rate of change and everything that technology can do for business is completely different. And it's just even more exciting. So it makes it more challenging, I think. You know, I mean, things are moving so fast, but at the same time, I think it's definitely more exciting.

[00:10:51] I know you said you felt like if it were you delete your spreadsheets, get rid of it. I didn't know. As the more stereotypical tech, I was the tech that kind of was doing them as speed, like that sort of thing. But as somebody coming in with different lens and different eyes, like what surprised you the most? What was it that kind of drove you to say, man, I don't know? That's a good question. So I have to go back to some of those original spreadsheets, too. And I wish I could find them. I've gone and I recycled them multiple times, you know, over the course of the first year.

[00:11:22] I must have been in a bad place. But, you know, I think there's probably a couple things. First of all, I think it's really easy to, and I've learned this many times, it's really easy to build a business in a spreadsheet. It's really easy. So, I mean, you know, I'm modeling out our sales for next year and we're going to become this more efficient. That's really, really simple.

[00:11:46] And then once you get into it and, you know, I think a big part of it was truly understanding that every single client is different. Every single one. And even today, we're pretty standardized. You know, we're across the board, I think is, I don't want to say standardized you can be, but we really push that at the same time. Every business is different. Every client is different.

[00:12:10] And so, you know, as I really got in there and understanding at the time, you know, we had a couple clients that were, you know, a 15-person client. That was a big client for us at the time and for me. And so, you know, how different is that than the three or four-person client and the needs and everything? And so, I think, you know, as I did that analysis and understanding that everybody's so different and we've got all these different solutions and products that, as I originally did my analysis, I had no idea about a bunch of that kind of stuff.

[00:12:40] And what was required to, A, support a client and, B, progress the business forward to where we were on day one is, you know, we're much further along the next year to where maybe even we actually go prospect and sell some stuff eventually. So, a novel idea. Maybe I could get it to where we're not just treading water and actually moving forward. Yeah. So, how long was it before you hired your first tech?

[00:13:10] First guy came on in about six months later. So, and still with me. And just. So, how do you operate a quote-unquote tech business without a tech? Tell me about that story. Yeah, Google's a really good thing. It really is. So, I guess, you know, when I was previous company and I was doing a lot of the software implementations for in the hospitals, we got involved in a lot of the technology.

[00:13:38] So, you know, it wasn't uncommon that while we're doing the software implementation, the same time the printer's not printing, we got to go figure out what's going on with the printer. It's that it's, there's a chance it's the software, the application, the solution. But at the same time, it's also that the print explorer's got a problem or something along those lines. And so, it got to be where I was pretty good at figuring things out and just figuring out which buttons to press. And I think, you know, for better or for worse, I've always been one of those that I'm not afraid to press the button.

[00:14:09] It's gotten me in a lot of trouble at times. But, you know, I always feel like there's, for the most part, there's a back button. So, not always. Yeah. But, and so, you know, those first six months, there was, it took me probably three times as long to resolve anything. But hours didn't really matter. And it was just, let's figure out how to get it done. There was, you know, there were all-nighters, you know, things that all of us knew who have started business. You know, we've all gone through that.

[00:14:38] What's funny is that, you know, bring on the first person. And, and I honestly, I lucked into it. I lucked into being able to work with him. And I think he resolved almost all of our outstanding issues in like 24 hours. So, all these things that have been kind of on my list. And when I say list, because I wasn't using a PSA, we had one, but I wasn't using it. And so, I think they were almost all resolved in about 24 hours. I was like, all right, let's go. Let's do this. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:06] So, it was, it was, as I said, I lucked out in being able to work with him. I'm a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. And that, you know, some changes that, you know, in his employment and everything, and the company essentially moving locations allowed him to be able to work with me and work with us here. And we wouldn't be the company we are today without him. Yeah.

[00:15:33] I think I got into it because it was fun, not because I had laid out any plan. Yeah. No spreadsheet, no market analysis. So, I'm kind of curious, how different was your year one spreadsheet before you, you know, bought the business versus your year one after a year of operating business? Yeah. So, you know, year one spreadsheet buying the business, you know, you hear, and at the time, I'm, I guess I'm 30, I was 31 years old at the time. So, 30, 31 years old.

[00:16:02] And so, you know, I was looking at industry best practices and everything. And yeah, the best practice companies are growing at, you know, 20, 25% every year. Well, I'm going to be a best practice company. Of course, I'm going to be growing at 25% a year. Right. So, that just seems logical, right? So, you know, I had laid out those plans. Again, it's really easy to build a business in a spreadsheet. And so, you know, you're going to add a client every single month. You know, we'll give ourselves a three-month buffer to get our legs underneath.

[00:16:31] But you're going to add a client every single month. It's going to compound everything. Well, it turns out, no, that's not the reality whatsoever. And we did add a couple clients in that first year. But really, my goal was to keep the existing client base with us and keep that client base happy. That was the goal, ultimately. And we were able to do that. And so, to where, you know, sitting here today, still have, you know, a number of those clients that are with us.

[00:16:56] And I consider many of them friends, honestly, as we all do kind of in our businesses. So, but I think that was the difference that, you know, how do we make sure the business is stable is after the fact was the goal versus before it was, yeah, we're going to stabilize this thing. And then we're just going to start growing and everything. So, that was probably the biggest change. So, we started with you. First year, hired one person, one tech.

[00:17:24] Like, let's jump ahead to current. Where are you now in terms of? Yeah. Now, I'd also say that, you know, I didn't just hire one that first year. So, you know, not that we're making money. Let's just be clear. But I went ahead and hired more. So, because, you know, what, you know, people can bring to the business and the opportunity. And, you know, one of the things that we looked at is not all revenues created equal. So, you know, not all revenues, good revenue.

[00:17:52] And, you know, you have to get a look at the bottom line of what you're doing. Over the course of really that getting us that this later part of that first year, getting the second three year, we had some good growth. But we really weren't putting anything to the bottom line. And so, but I was continuing to bring on people and in different areas. And so that was a really good lesson that I learned. So now sitting here today, we've got 18 people.

[00:18:20] And, you know, mostly here in Kansas City, but at this point all over to a certain degree. And so we've grown quite a bit as an organization. But I would say our maturity is more than anything. It's what's grown. So we've got a mature group of people here. Yeah.

[00:18:39] So from what I gather, it took you about seven years from the time you acquired the business to grow it, to be on MSP 501 list. By definition, most people never make that. It's top 500. There's, you know, what, 100,000, 30,000. A lot. There's a lot of MSPs out there. What do you attribute that to? And especially in such short order. Yeah.

[00:19:08] I think I'll answer that in two ways. One is as the business matured, I started to get out of the way. And that's probably one of the things that takes a while to figure out and let the people who are smarter than you go ahead and start to start to do things. You know, as I mentioned, early on, we grew quickly. You know, we had, you know, years two, three, four, five. We were hitting 35, 40% growth year over year, everything. But those weren't always the right clients.

[00:19:37] And the one I always talk about is we had one client who had an exchange online mailbox with us for four bucks. And we're making, you know, 64 cents on that mailbox, something like that. And, you know, he's calling me twice a week. And, you know, he was a great guy, fantastic guy. But just, you know, from a business perspective, didn't make sense. And also wasn't how we weren't able to truly support him, how he needed to be supported within that.

[00:20:03] And so we had to take a really hard look at ourselves in about 2016, 2017 and figure, okay, A, let's do some actual business planning here. And ironically, 2016 is when we reset our core values and core values that actually were applicable to the business and things. You know, previously it was integrity and honesty. And there's no doubt those are values. But if you don't have those, you're not here.

[00:20:32] Like it's just that simple. So whereas, you know, going forward, it was things, you know, they were, you know, what applies to business? What's what are let's talk about us as a business. And so set those in 16 and I did a full session that really that was organic from the team. That was not me driving things top down or our leadership team driving stuff down from organic from the team. I really set back a good amount of that that that exercise.

[00:20:59] And then getting into 17 and 18 and to figure out what was the right client for us. And where was it best for us to spend our time and our energy knowing that not every client is right for us. That was hard for me to just swallow, honestly. And early on, if you know what, if you had a heartbeat, yeah, let's talk. Let's go.

[00:21:24] Again, you know, things I've learned over the course of time and things I think we've all learned that's easier said than done. But we went from we cut our client base in half from in 2017, 2018. Very deliberately cut our client base in half. And that's huge. Yeah, it was it was it was really hard. It was really hard. But looked at it, you know, said, hey, you know what? These clients aren't a good fit for us. And some of that was still some break fix, some some legacy break fix work we had.

[00:21:52] You know, going in 2011 when I started the business and did the acquisition, it was not 100 percent managed. And then we did our acquisition and that was not 100 percent managed. So it was, hey, let's we believe in the managed model. We believe that, you know what, we shouldn't be waiting. If we've got something that's a major fire and there's a significant issue, we shouldn't be waiting on the client to say, yeah, go ahead and approve that. We need to go take care of that right now because it's going to save them possibly a significant hassle later on.

[00:22:20] And so it was converting a lot of that to the managed managed business and the managed approach. But also what clients just aren't a good fit for us. So we got to figure that out. Now we help them to find new homes, as we called it. This wasn't just a letter. See you later. That's it. I think, you know, relationships are too important to do that. But we help them to to find different providers. But during that time, revenue and bottom line both increased.

[00:22:47] And so it was, hey, we cut our clients in half the number we're supporting. But it was that we were supporting. We were focused on the right things. So I think that was a significant shift in the business right there. It was hard. And ultimately, it was, you know, people that recommended that to us. You know, peer groups and different friends that, hey, you got to be focusing on the right thing and not just everything. It was a big that was the big shift, I think, for us. Yeah. Yeah. I think everybody seems to go through that.

[00:23:17] So I'm curious, what is the right fit? And how did you determine that? Because it's easy to use the language. And I found it's a lot harder to define what right fit means. Yeah. And I think sitting here today, you know, we have our we've got our target market, what we're focused on, geography and size and everything. A big part of it to us is there's two things. One is do we have shared values? So and the short of that is do we want to work with them?

[00:23:46] We want to spend, you know, we are on site a lot by nature of how we like to work with clients. We want to be on site quite a bit and we're going to be on the phone with them on a regular basis. Honestly, we're not the kind that, hey, you know what? We put our software on there and then you're not going to hear from us. And that's not us. And so I'm not saying that's bad. It's just different, different approaches a little bit. And so do we have those shared values and everything? The other one is do they see technology as an advantage? And that's a big one.

[00:24:14] So the clients that just see us as a cost center and you know what? I hate writing that check to them every single month or, you know, however they pay. Probably not a good fit for us because we're going to make tech recommendations for them over the course of time on how can we progress your business? Either progress your business or protect your business, even more so today. But, you know, we're going to make those recommendations. And if they don't see technology as a way forward, probably not going to be a great fit.

[00:24:41] They're not going to value what we do and value the recommendations we're providing. So I think, you know, those are the more non-tangible items. So, you know, we can talk about, you know, we're at size of company and everything. But at the end of the day, you know, we'll take clients that are outside of that standard size or even geography a little bit. If we think, hey, they line up with that, you know, how they view technology and they're going to be, you know, work with us well, for sure. But even, you know, that's changing.

[00:25:11] When I started the business originally, we were focused. I think our target market was like five to 20 users. And then, you know, it's 10 to 30. And then it's, you know, 20 to 50. And it continues to gradually, you know, increase over the course of time. And that's just natural to the business in terms of what you can do and what you can handle. I think in general, not always, but in general, we've been good at not getting in over our head.

[00:25:37] And, you know, that 5,000 person business that comes, we can't take that. We know that. And so let's not get to something or try to do something we can't. And we're not afraid to say no. We, you know, say no to quite a few opportunities and quite a few leads. And that is hard to do. The salesperson and me and the business leaders, that's hard to do. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:02] Especially if you have any kind of cost involved in attracting that client and attracting that lead. 100%. Yeah. I'm rocking it. I'd probably always like that. Yeah. I'd like to go back to the part you talked about resetting core values. I feel like a lot of people start without them and then maybe adopt some. But that kind of caught my interest. Just like what drove the need to reset the core values?

[00:26:30] I, you know, great question. And I think it's that our core values at the time were something that were still valid, as I mentioned, integrity, honesty, service. Those are still valid. But there were things that I said at the beginning and I was like, here's what we're going to be. And I'm a believer that the core values need to come from the organization itself. Plus, this was 2016. So we've been in business for five years.

[00:27:00] We changed a lot over the course of that time. And what we were in 11 versus 16 is different than really what we are here in 24. But I wanted it to come from a team, but I also wanted them to be kind of a living part of who we are. And what I mean by that is ultimately, you know, we use those core values every single day in everything that we're doing. So we've got a wall over here on the outside that actually has our core values on there.

[00:27:28] And if you see that somebody exemplifies the core values in a certain way, write a sticky note, throw it up on the ball. And so and then during our monthly team, we're going to read those off. We're going to show what those are. And at first, it's kind of cheesy. And then all of a sudden found that, hey, if your name's getting read off, feel pretty good as well as all of a sudden. It's kind of like, you know, the holidays and all of a sudden you give a gift and you actually feel better by giving that gift than you do to receive the gift, which my kids don't agree with yet.

[00:27:56] But you're still young. But, you know, and so they started to become part of who truly who we were. And and now we look at those and all the hiring decisions are based on those core values. And the when we meet with with with people on our team on a quarterly basis, we're reviewing those core values.

[00:28:15] And really what we do is we review one of the core values every single quarter and evaluate kind of where they are and recommendations to how we can continue to to live up to those on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. So so they're they're truly part of what we do every single day. I think the hard part for me is being that, you know, again, the finance guy and then who likes the tech and everything. These are this. This is the soft part of the business. I'll be honest, you know, there have been many times and even sitting here sometimes today and like, it's not important, whatever.

[00:28:45] So when you reflect on it, yeah, it's it's the people are what make the business go forward. It is that simple. It's not the it's not the applications. It's not the ones and zeros. It's it's the people and how you how you work with the people for sure. So. Yeah. Yeah. So you were driving some pretty. Exceptional growth there, right? More than best in class in some cases. Top line. Tell me. Top line growth. There you go.

[00:29:15] Tell me about some of the issues that happened because of that fast growth. Some of the challenges. Yeah. Some of the issues. First of all, extreme, you know, with lack of process, lack of stat standardization would take anything. And and so, you know, we've got all these different tools. And don't get me wrong. I love to. I love to buy a tool. So, you know, give me a new application and buy. Yeah, man. So let's buy two.

[00:29:42] But, you know, it's I think one of the biggest pieces was was lack of standardization. And as well as, you know, finding the right people. And, you know, when you're in that growth mode. First, we weren't ready for the growth mode. We didn't have the process. We didn't have the hiring process or the onboarding process for really clients or for employees.

[00:30:07] And so, you know, when we realized that, hey, we've got, you know, an influx of business coming in. We need to hire ahead. What's that look like? Who do we need? We weren't ready for that whatsoever. And so as a result, you know, we went through some tough times with hiring. And and that was around the time when we started to really define those core values. And then but, you know, sat there in 2016 and defined those. We weren't necessarily hiring based on those day one.

[00:30:35] Like I sit here in 2024 said, oh, yeah, we had it all right. No, we didn't. And we weren't hiring based on those. That probably started really in 2018, 19. We started to look in probably more 20 even. So just because we had those doesn't mean we were hiring based on those. And so we're in growth mode and we're bringing people in. But they weren't always the right fit for us. Sometimes they were. So sometimes, you know, we've got some amazing people we hired during that time period. They're still with us and they're absolutely fantastic.

[00:31:05] But, you know, you I think it was, you know, a lot of times we're looking at, do we have the right, right people in the right seats? So I think a lot of times at that time we were like, hey, do we just have somebody on the bus? And it was it was that simple. And then it wasn't always the right person. So. You had ended up hiring some of the wrong people. What were some of the consequences of that?

[00:31:31] We really had to pull back on growth, pull back and really halt sales, halt and really kind of pull back significantly at the at the time, because I think our service lacked our service. I shouldn't say like I think our service struggled a little bit because we really had to get our feet underneath us. And this is going to sound cheesy, but, you know, do a little bit of soul searching. Like, who are we as a company? What are we trying to do? And at the end of the day, we are. I mean, our service to our clients is what's most important. There is no doubt about that.

[00:32:01] So we can talk about sales and all profitability and everything. If we're not effectively servicing our clients, that all goes away. And so and as well as it doesn't make sense to continue to sell if they're falling out of the bottom. And so how do we go and make sure that our service is where it needs to be our communication with our clients and as well as work with our team? What is the cadence of developing our team and meeting with them on a regular basis to

[00:32:29] understand where they are and what they want and need? And we just didn't have that process in place by any means. Again, you know, are we perfect today? No, we're not by any means. And but that's also I think, you know, sitting here today with our team is very different than than back then. We were all in the office all the time then. So obviously something happened about three and a half, four years ago that forces many people remote. And we still we're still hybrid. And we've got some people who are fully remote.

[00:32:58] And so managing that environment is very different than it was previously. And what does that look like? And how do you keep in touch with that person to make sure that, hey, you know what? How are they doing? That's I'll be honest. That's that's probably one of my biggest struggles is continuing to sit down and reach out to people if they're not here in the office and making sure, you know, I understand where they are. I think we're one of the things that I've always really enjoyed is understanding not only

[00:33:25] what's going on in that person's life from a professional perspective, but also personal perspective. So we'll toe the line a little bit there. But I want to know, you know, what's your dog's name? What's going on with your kids? What's what's going on in your life? Everything's I think that's important. We spend so much time with each other every single day. So, you know, at the basic level, we're together for 40 hours a week, sometimes more than that. More than with my own family many times. And so I want to, you know, I want to know what's going on in your life and I want to

[00:33:55] know how I can support you in your life outside of here. Because at the same time, you know, I'm looking for same thing from them a little bit. So, you know, it's not as if, you know, I don't need support at the same time. So, yeah. Yeah. So what are some of the what are some of the things that you got right about culture? Got right about culture.

[00:34:22] Even if one at first, like I think there's some things you're doing well, at least in my opinion. Yeah. So I think the one is the regular check-ins with people. You have to, you know, the the old school was you've got your annual review and let's sit down. Let's talk to talk to you about, you know, what you're doing well and what you're not doing well and, you know, even going way back, you know, pre-Pandello.

[00:34:49] It was, you know, I feel like sometimes there were surprises that you find out in your annual review. Like, wait a minute, where did that come from? So how long has this been going on? And, you know, really now we're more of a quarterly system. And at the same time, the majority of people all meet with their manager on a weekly basis. Not everybody, but the majority. And so that's a big piece of just that check-in of how you doing? What's going on? Hey, you know what?

[00:35:18] We got to focus on this over here. So that little bit of that accountability piece. So the other piece is we're an EOS shop. So entrepreneurial operating system, which is obviously in our industry now is widely known. And I think that bringing that structure in. So it was 2000, it was in 2018 when I first read traction and oh my God, this is going to change our world. And so looking at that and looking at through that framework was beneficial.

[00:35:47] I'm the classic visionary and, you know, my business partner is the classic integrator. And so we're able to work really well in that environment. And I think, you know, my struggle is that I'm the visionary, that everything makes sense in my head. And why can't you guys figure this out? So these couple of pieces just fit together and everything's great. And let's be honest that the reality is that's not the case. And so being able to understand kind of some of that communication structure and where are we going? What are we doing? How are we going to get there?

[00:36:15] And that regular cadence of planning was instrumental. You know, when we started in 2018, a lot of the people that we started with then are not here anymore. And again, that's part also what forced us to look at those core values. That's a big piece of EOS. And then working with an implementer on EOS. I tried to self-implement for a while and probably did 50%, which is the worst place to be. Kind of really, you know, probably did it halfway for sure.

[00:36:44] And, and, but also, you know, trying to run a meeting while trying to try to also be part of that meeting is challenging. So, but a lot of it's communication. A big part of this communication and something I'm still not great at. And so being able to show where are we, where are we going? Is this model? So last Friday, actually, we just had our state of the business. So it's, you know, once a quarter we'll sit down and we'll have our state of the business

[00:37:11] and to be able to show, Hey, here's where we, here's where we were. Here's where we're going. Here's where we were last quarter. Here's the objectives that we set out last quarter, by the way. Yeah, we nailed them. And so we're, um, it's not just things we put up on the board that, Hey, here's our rocks. Here's our goals. Um, no, we're putting the time and the energy and the focus to these. Uh, now we, uh, did we miss one last quarter? We did. We're not perfect. So, you know, if we hit them every single quarter, we're not, you know, we're not shooting high enough.

[00:37:40] And so I think, you know, a couple of those things were, were instrumental in the business. So it's the, it's the soft side of the business all day long. So what are some of the big mistakes or challenges that you made with culture? Yeah. Um, you know, again, I think that everybody, um, it's one size fits all. Uh, you know, there's in an MSP, you know, you know, a lot of different types of people

[00:38:07] in any business, I shouldn't say not just an MSP, but you know, the scope of what MSPs are handling these days is massive. Uh, and especially with the increase in cybersecurity and the events that are going on, our scope has increased so much. And, you know, a lot of times we're still expecting the same people to just continue to expand and expand and expand. And there's only so much they can handle on a daily basis. Uh, and so, um, I think expecting, you know, that, you know, we call, um, you know, the

[00:38:36] Swiss army knife. Um, it's really hard to find that, that, that person. Uh, so, uh, you know, that's, that's it. That's been, I think early on expecting we could find that and find that easily was, was a, um, a mistake, um, for sure. Uh, you know, I think other things, you know, it's, I think one of the mistakes I really made was, um, when we're in a struggle and that some of the challenges with, with people, um, you know, in the sales in 17, 18, 19 timeframe, I took my foot off the accelerator a little

[00:39:06] bit and took my foot off from a sales and marketing perspective. That was a mistake. Um, should, you know, and I took it off. I shouldn't say a little bit. I took it off the accelerator. Uh, so we were, um, getting that going again is really hard. Uh, it's really hard. It takes time and energy and focus and money. And, and so it's really hard to get that going again. And, um, so I think, you know, if I, if I were to go back in, you know, might ease off a little bit, but we've got to keep, got to keep that ball rolling because

[00:39:34] it's, it's hard to get that ball rolling again. So that was a, that was a definite mistake. So, yeah. You know, it's funny. So I've messed up so many times. So, um, and, uh, you know, it's just, uh, it's, it's, it's hard to pinpoint one for sure. I'm sure I'll think of a million of them here. And so what have you learned personally about those mistakes? Like what is, what has that shaped in you and changed you?

[00:40:01] Yeah, I think I'm a lot more tolerant than I used to be, um, in certain things. Uh, maybe I keep it to myself a little more. Uh, but I think, uh, I think I'm more tolerant. Um, what's funny is it's actually just took, um, um, I retook a disc assessment, uh, just, just recently. It was the other day and I hadn't taken one since 2016 and I've actually changed quite a bit on there. So that the D in me that, you know, that the dominant side, um, it has come down quite a bit because I'm not as hard charging as I need, as I used to be.

[00:40:31] Um, I think that's me maturing as a person and, and me maturing as a business owner and a leader, um, is, is important there. Um, I also think, you know, the people that can, I keep going back to the people side of it, but it's so important and, and understanding the people, you know, and, and being able to, to constantly check in with them and check in with, Hey, how are you doing? And great job on this and that. And the part of me is saying, you know, I told you like last month you did a good job.

[00:41:01] Uh, and you know, why don't, why don't you still feel the same way today? Uh, no, that's not the way it works. I've got, I've got a good friend who, um, he always says, you know, I told my wife, I loved her on our wedding day, you know, is that not enough? Uh, you know, that's, that's, and we constantly need to be telling our team, good job. And we want to hear that as well. You know, I think sometimes we want to be able to hear it. Hey, you know what? Good job on that. Uh, you know, set the direction correctly or you had that conversation and good job of that. So I think that that's a place where I've really matured over the course of time and

[00:41:30] being able to, to learn from, from some of my mistakes and everything. So to where I even had a goal at one point, a personal goal that, you know, every single day you were going to compliment somebody. So I should probably go back and find that goal to be honest with you. So yeah, the effective one. So I think it's cool how you are able to even see that on a disc assessment. You're, you're, uh, yeah, compared that compared the two and, uh, to see kind of where, where have I changed it? I feel like, I felt like I had changed it. I was fascinated to see some of the results on that.

[00:41:59] So, and it's just, you know, I think back when, back then I was probably more of that hard charging. Let's go, go, go at all times. And now it's more than, you know, there's still that and still that let's go, but let's be aware of what that impact is and what's that impact on the team and the culture and everybody. And because of our, if our team's not happy, what's, what's the point? So, um, we, as I mentioned, you know, we spend so much time with, um, with our team and with the people you work with.

[00:42:29] Um, but also if you look at, you know, there's a variety of studies out there. Why do people either leave or stay in order as an organization? It's the people they work with. Um, so assuming that pay is good, assuming it's a good fit with, from a role perspective, the end of the day, they stay because of who they work with. And so, you know, it's important that, Hey, we set a good culture here and we have good people to work with that are similar in general, but also have differences. Um, no, I may be the same. Um, but also like, um, are we taking care of them?

[00:42:58] Are we doing, are we looking out for what's, what's best for them? If we've got somebody who's working every single weekend of the year, that's not a good work-life balance. That's not a good culture provided for them. Burn them out. So, and really we try to limit it as much as possible, uh, here in terms of, uh, you know, some of that, that off hours work. Um, so I think, you know, it's really understanding some of the, um, you know, the results of some of the decisions that, that, that I make and some of the consequences sometimes of what's that mean for the team. Hmm.

[00:43:30] Tell me about the sticky notes. Sticky notes. Sticky notes are awesome. And so, uh, I can't, I'm trying to think who made that recommendation to us. So I think it was, um, it was a peer group member, um, or a Prospera facilitator. But so, you know, again, how do you, how do you bring your core values in your day-to-day? How do you make that a part of your culture is, is really the task. And so there's not just something that you have on your website, uh, cause that's really

[00:43:58] what we're, we're going for is, is part of the, the, um, the culture of your organization. And so, um, we have those on there and we, we have the sticky notes. So say, Hey, you know what, Mike, you know, one of our, um, sticky notes is, um, you know, nothing is beyond reach. We deal with a bunch of really weird stuff. Um, and there's always that weird one that you got to figure out, Hey, you know what, let's, let's go figure it out. And so, you know what, Mike, Mike really portrayed nothing as beyond reach and, um, right thing.

[00:44:24] And so at that team meeting, we read them as I mentioned, and, um, we'll end up with, I mean, actually this past team meeting, we spent 20 minutes reading core values and examples of those core values. And, uh, now that's changed a little bit. Cause as I mentioned, you know, the remote world we're living in, uh, and so how's that change? Yeah. Um, you know, uh, uh, they used to all be on the board over here and, you know, be able to look out, you know, right now and say, God, there's like 30 of them on there. That's awesome.

[00:44:52] Uh, and, and, you know, an example is, uh, was probably a month or two ago. Um, now it's probably a little longer that, but, um, we weren't seeing as many, weren't seeing as many people remote. Uh, so we said, how do we, how do we change this? How do we enable it that wherever you are, you can then, um, put that down when you're thinking about it. Cause we try to do it a week later that, you know what, I really feel like Mike did something last week. I don't know what it was. So yeah, it's gotta be, you know, how do you, um, provide that at the time of somebody's thinking about it? So we built something in teams.

[00:45:22] We actually used whiteboard in teams and, and we built out the exact same look and feel and structure of, of the wall in there. It's where you can put a little sticky notes on, on, on the core value, and then we'll print those off and read them. And actually I have a, I have a box in my, uh, my cupboard here of all the sticky notes that we have over the course of the past, what's that probably, um, six, seven, eight years now that we've been doing this. And at some point I'm going to dump it out and show all the amazing things that we've done. Uh, but box is getting pretty full at this point.

[00:45:51] So, um, but what's, you know, as I looked back about a month ago, looked out at that wall and there was nothing on there. I was, you know, part of it was like, what's going on here? I was a little frustrated and everything. Okay. Uh, I think, you know, team meeting was on Friday and this is a midday Thursday and I'm starting to prep the presentation and, um, I'm a little frustrated. And so it's like, well, you know what? I'll go check the teams and check that, that whiteboard out there. And it was absolutely full of, of examples of where we had done amazing things.

[00:46:20] And, um, the, that was, that was awesome. It's absolutely incredible feelings. I was like, you know what? This is, this is fantastic. So I actually took a screenshot of that and put that as part of the presentation. We, we read them out and everything, but it's something that has become a major part of what we do and, and just constantly people thinking about it. But it's also, we have to stay on top of that. Uh, and there's, you know, every once in a while, you know, I'll throw it out there and the general chat of, Hey, by the way, you know, team meetings Friday, if you've got something that, uh, you know, somebody you want to recognize, uh, don't be afraid to put it out there.

[00:46:50] And so I think it's just something you have to, to stay on top of and, and that's culture in general. You got to stay on top of it. That's the best of that. Well, speaking of people, you, you had some periods of pretty rapid growth. Um, how do you engage emotionally, uh, with your team when you have that rapid change, right? That people on different pages, people are feeling different ways. Some people are excited. Some people are nervous. Some people are scared. Yeah. Uh, it's a great question. I don't know.

[00:47:16] Um, so no, uh, you know what, um, you got to meet them where they are first of all. And that's, and you got to figure out a, what's, what's that person want out of that role, out of that, out of the organization. Uh, and I think, and I really look at it as, um, you know, I'm here for our team. Our team is not here for me. I'm here for our team. And so how do we, um, figure out what they want, what they need and be able to marry those with the, uh, objectives, the organization, as well as the objectives of the person.

[00:47:46] Um, it's not always perfect by any means. And so how do we do that? But then also how do we paint that picture of where we're going of, you know what? Yeah, I know what we're doing. What XYZ thing is right now. It's kind of painful, but here's what's going to do long-term for us. Uh, here's what's going to allow us to do either for the organization or our clients or yourself. Uh, and so I think painting that picture is really important. And that's one of those things that, you know, I didn't always do because I mean, I thought about it like, why wouldn't everybody understand that?

[00:48:14] So where we talked about in our leadership meeting, wasn't everybody in our leadership meeting? So no, not at all. And being able to paint that picture and paint that view for them, I think is really important. But then be able to marry that with, Hey, you know what? This guy is really interested in this technology and loves this piece. How does that fit in the overall structure of where we're going? Um, and then be able to show them that path and those opportunities of, of where we're going and, and, and what that means for them. So, so I think, you know, it's, um, meeting them in the middle.

[00:48:43] So an understanding what, what they want. Um, but also the. What again, back to the personal side, you know, you're going to have people who are in different stages of their lives. Uh, and you know, if it's important for, for somebody to be able to be out of here at, um, a certain time to be able to hit their kids practice or do whatever, um, that's important. Uh, and so, and even as I've grown, you know, you know, I coach practices and all that kind of stuff. And I know that I'm going to flex my schedule and raise some certain things. And, and, and, and all, I'm, I'm responsible for the organization as well, just like any,

[00:49:12] any employee. Uh, so I'm no different. And so it's, you know, figuring out what's, what that person needs is, is, is a really important piece. So definitely not something early on. Didn't do that. So, um, what do you mean? You don't want to work 80 hours a week? Like, I don't understand that. So why are we all doing that? So, um, not at all. So, yeah. Yeah. Uh, I wanted to switch gears for a minute and ask, what's the biggest lesson you've learned over your career as MSP?

[00:49:42] Um, biggest lesson, you know, I'd say you're not going to please everyone. Um, and that's a general lesson. Uh, but I think it, it comes through pretty clearly, especially when you're running a business. So you're just, um, you're not going to please every person. You're not going to please every employee. Um, and sometimes, you know what, people are going to leave and that's, that's the reality. That's fine. Uh, you know, early on, um, and even sometimes still now when somebody leaves, you know, it hurts. It really does.

[00:50:09] But that means it wasn't the right fit for that person for a variety of reasons. And that's just had to be okay with that. Um, and that, you know, um, what they need is not right as well as with everyone, with, with prospects and opportunities and clients, you know, you're not always going to make everybody happy. And some of the decisions that you make won't make everybody happy. You have to be okay with that. And I think that's where you have to have some, some thick skin, uh, sometimes. And, and, um, so, um, so yeah, just not being able, you know, you're not going to please everybody.

[00:50:36] Um, now I can say that, um, from a personal perspective too, sometimes, you know, you're not going to please everybody. So, um, all your friends aren't going to like the decisions you make and sometimes your family. But I think as long as we're looking out for what is, um, best for the organization, um, I think that's has to be kind of where we're going and what, and what we're doing. So, but also I think where you are, where we are today is very different than when we were a number of years ago and what we're focused on and what we can do.

[00:51:04] And that might mean that a client that's been with us for a long time, maybe isn't, isn't right for us anymore. And we're not right for them. Um, and being okay with that. And sometimes that hurts, you know, when that client that believes it's been with us for a long time, you know, that sometimes hurts, but you know, you got to look at it. Okay. Maybe this was actually right. So, um, you know, let's, let's make sure that they get to where they're going, uh, the appropriate way. So we, you know, we're a firm believer of, of, um, you know, when you come to us, we're going to give it our best ability.

[00:51:33] If you leave, we're going to give it, give it the best we have. So. Yeah. Yeah. If there were one thing you could do over. Yeah. Or do differently. What would that be? Yeah. I think again, you know, I mentioned it earlier, taking that, the foot off the accelerator, uh, and because it's so hard to get things going again. So, and that's even for somebody who generally, you know, I, I like sales, you know, which is where I'm a little different than many of the, the MSP founders, that, that technician.

[00:52:01] So that's a stereotype, but you know, I like sales and I like the, the interaction and a little bit of the competition. And so, but, you know, not, um, not always pushing that forward, um, is, um, something I'd probably change. And, um, yeah, I definitely continue to make sure that while we're, it may not be going, you know, pedal to the metal still, you gotta, you gotta be pushing forward. You can't take it off completely. Yeah.

[00:52:29] What's, what's your current biggest challenge? Like there's different seasons of different reasons, right? So what's, what is it that you're currently facing or trying to overcome? Um, you know, I think running an MSP is not about the technicals and, and while it might be early on to a certain degree, you know, it's in reality, it's, it's, it's no different than many businesses. And I think it's a really hard industry. I think it's extremely hard.

[00:52:57] You know, you look at the, the number of transactions and again, the scope of what we're doing. And this is a number of years ago. I went and looked at, you know, how many different people had to touch, uh, just when we had a basic workstation set up from the time a client was interested all the way through to when that client, you know, it has that workstation that's on again, workstation is basic, you know, in theory, um, how many people touch that into a lot of different people. Um, we have a high transaction business. We have a high touch business and that's the MSP. That's not, that's not us.

[00:53:25] That's the MSP, uh, and it community for sure. And so, you know, I think it's, um, it's while it is all of technicals to a certain degree and those ones and zeros. So, Hey, this, this application is going to change my world. Uh, this new tool, everything that's going to change it. Um, it's again, it's about the people, it's about the process, it's about the direction, the vision, what we're doing, the planning, um, is, is a major piece. And I think actually, I haven't talked much about it, but, you know, the planning side is

[00:53:55] a, is something we've actually been fairly successful at. Um, you know, I get back to my finance side and the number side that I, I, I love numbers being able to plan out in the future, what we're going to be and be close to that as I think, um, pretty important for sure. So, but you know, what I mentioned early on, you know, that what you need is a one person business versus five, 10, a hundred, whatever that is, um, that's changing. And I think when you're, when you're early on, it's about fixing the computer. It's about fixing that server, getting, get the network up or, you know,

[00:54:25] protecting that computer. As you continue to grow, it becomes less and less about the technicals. Obviously we're still providing that service. That's what we do, but it's how do you develop the people? How do you develop the process? How do you develop the structure to enable those people to be successful? So they can then go focus on the technicals or go focus on the clients and make sure they're doing what's best. There's a lot of really smart, uh, MSPs listening to this right now. So is there any like, Hey, I could use help here.

[00:54:53] I'd love to learn how you did this. Is there any particular area with the challenge you're facing now that you're like, Hey, this, this would be really great to, to learn from someone or to see how you walked in this. Yeah. I think that, um, to what I just said, you know, the, the, the budgeting piece, the forecast piece, the, um, the plan, I should say the planning piece, um, is, is something that, and I'm, um, I'm happy to help whomever on, on this kind of stuff. You know, as I, I've got a business partner who's amazing with numbers and from the operational perspective and everything.

[00:55:23] And so, and she loves that piece too. Um, I want to offer her time up. Um, so look at mine, but you know, I think that that planning piece of being realistic, um, you know, again, back to 2011 problems of, Hey, life's really easy to plan in a spreadsheet. We're going to onboard, you know, 10 clients every month, uh, to where we are now in terms of being realistic and what, what, what we can do, but then also let's push ourselves a little bit. How do we get there? Uh, and how do we look at the, the business as a whole and the different levers that we can pull?

[00:55:52] Um, Hey, I love that piece. Uh, and you know, it's a little bit of the, um, you know, if we pull this lever, does this happen? And then what's the risk if we do this and that and everything? That's, that's, that's awesome. So I love that piece. So, you know, always happy to walk through that. And sometimes I think that we've, we've done pretty well in, in, in general, for sure. So we've got a lot of other things we've got to learn, but yeah. Well, speaking of that, there's a lot of savvy MSPs listening to this.

[00:56:20] So is there any thing you would love to have a discussion with or love to learn from others? Good question. Um, you know, I think, uh, I, I'll answer this in two ways. One, I think we're always looking for opportunities to learn. We have to be. Um, and I think part of what we don't know, we don't know.

[00:56:45] Uh, and so, you know, we're sitting here today as an 18 person organization and how do we get to 30? Uh, and it's not so that after the past, you know, hour or whatever, I was saying it's all about the people. Um, it's not, and that's not all about the number of people. It's about having the right people. Uh, and so a lot of times I feel like the first question people always ask is, Hey, how many people do you have? So, and he knows, um, it's not always about that. It's about what are you doing with the people? Uh, and so, um, you know, how do we continue to grow?

[00:57:15] How do we get to that next level? You know, when, when you look at there's different kind of plateaus, uh, that you, that you have. Uh, I think some of those are revenue plateaus. Some of those are, you know, the organization, you know, so when you're having that first hire outside of you is really hard, uh, you know, make it say, Hey, I'm going to bring this person on it now. I'm responsible for their payroll. Uh, that's kind of scary. Then all of a sudden you get to five and it's a little bit plateau there and 10 and 20, you know, we're, we're at one of those plateaus, you know, trying to butt through that ceiling.

[00:57:44] Uh, so how do you, you know, lessons learned from, from those, uh, that have, uh, you know, been there and that 15 to 20 person. And then, you know, kind of pushed on, on through. I think that's something that we're really, really looking at right now. Uh, you know, and we're, we're evaluating really all of our processes right now and what we're doing and does it make sense what we were doing? I won't say 10 years ago, but sometimes 10 months ago, does it make sense for what we're doing today? Where we're going?

[00:58:13] And how do we, how do we continue to create efficiencies, but also do it in the best interest of the client and ourselves and everything. So, um, continue to think, have our eyes open for sure. Yeah. What's something, um, given the state of the industry, where you are, just from your perspective, what's something you're looking forward to? I think this industry has so much opportunity still, uh, you know, and I can talk out both

[00:58:39] sides of my mouth there, um, which I did quite a bit, but, uh, one, you know, it's a saturated market. Uh, so I mean, there's how many MSPs, I mean, I saw a recent one, there's what 84,000 MSPs with or something like that with greater than 30%, 30% recurring revenue. So I mean, it's, it's saturated. Um, at the same time, there is a lot of opportunity.

[00:59:00] Um, and as I mentioned, you know, our scope continues to increase, but how do we, you know, how do we find what we're really good at and go and just nail that? Uh, whether that's an industry or a technology or whatever that is, you know, I, I think there's so much opportunity within the space, um, SMBs and continue to scale up to larger organizations or continue to look to MSPs for expertise. I think part of that is because we see so many different things every single day.

[00:59:27] If you have one environment, you know, that environment pretty well. Uh, and you know, you're only going to have so many different things. We're seeing all these different environments and as standardized as we are, they're all completely different. So, you know, we have that experience and that person that, um, you know, saw something weird yesterday and saw something weird today and be able to put the, you know, correlate those as well as figure both of those out. I think we'll continue to, to be able to work up market if that's right for the MSP. Um, that may not be right for everybody. And it may not be right for us.

[00:59:56] Uh, so I can tell you, you know, it's, um, you know, if it's a thousand person organization, that's not right for us. So I'm fine with that because, you know, where we are today, but, but I think we'll continue to have a lot of work. We'll continue to have, um, increased opportunity in the, in the, in the market. Um, and obviously the big, the big guys are doing the analysis of the industry are continuing to see that and everything, but it's figuring out what you do really well. Um, and then just go 110% at it. Uh, you know, we're looking at that right now, uh, and figuring out what, you know, what do we do really well with that?

[01:00:26] Yeah. Like I'm still bullish on the industry as many people are, you know, more people are coming into the industry every single day. But at the same time, you know, there's still, there's still a lot, a lot there. Yeah. If you do it well. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's so much opportunity and challenge in our, in competition. Right. So, um, it's not a boring market, right? Just wait. It'll change.

[01:00:52] You know, it's, um, I can't think the last time that I woke up and I was like, man, what am I going to do today? It's just, there's nothing going on. You know, I, uh, I didn't have the gray hair when I started the business and you know, it's, it's, it is, it is rare. You have that same time, like, you know, challenged every single day. And I think that's what, that's what keeps us going and keeps us young. And in general, we, we like to work with people that when we have a team here that likes to be challenged, it likes to go figure out what that next thing is.

[01:01:21] And I think that's, that's opportunity. And I think that's also where we evolved as an organization a little bit of, again, what's that right person for us? It's probably that person who wants to go figure out that problem, figure out that solution. So it's an interesting market though. As you know. What's the one book you'd recommend? I'm going to go with two. Okay. And so, um, both of which I've read relatively recently.

[01:01:49] Um, so first one, um, the road less stupid by Keith Cunningham. Uh, really good. Have you read that one? So, uh, it's been recommended. Has it really? Yeah. Awesome. But, but ultimately, you know, that I think the one thing there, which ties into the second one, you got to take your title just resonates with me though. That, that, that one just looks like they wrote it after me or something. Yeah, exactly. So did you just follow me around or, or what? Yeah.

[01:02:13] But it, you know, get that thinking time, get that planning time, ask yourself the hard questions, be able to digest those and, and plan out the business. And, you know, I, I love that it, it doesn't just talk about it, but it gives you some of those questions to, to ask yourself. And at the end of every chapter, I'm sitting there, I'm like, yeah, I haven't thought about that. I haven't thought about that. So, and then I actually set out that at the beginning of the year, one of my goals was I was going to take, I think there are 50 something chapters in that book, I think.

[01:02:38] And they've got questions to answer at the end, to think on, I was going to do one of those a week. I have not just newsflash. And so we're sitting here in late November or so towards the end of the year. So, but I think that one, the other one is, I was actually just recently recommended from a friend of mine who just finished Deep Work by Cal Newport. And, and that's a, that's a fantastic one too, in terms of the value of that deep, that deep focus time and the ability to get there.

[01:03:07] And, and the, especially I think in the role is, you know, the, those of us who were kind of the thought leaders that are saying a thought leader, but that driving the, the company forward and figure out where we're going next from a strategic perspective. We've got to have that focus time. We have so many different distractions today. So there's teams or Slack or texts or phones or emails or whatever, you know, I think, you know, the original intention of Slack was to get rid of email. Right. And now we just have it.

[01:03:34] And I think Slack's great as well as teams, but now we've got an additional medium for people contacting us. And so it's being able to, you know, get the focus time on a regular basis to be able to, and block everything else and be okay with that. You know, there's, there's been times and even sitting here today, when I told myself, you know, I need to be, I need to be out there with the team at all times.

[01:03:57] No, sometimes be able to have that focus time to be able to plan forward, to be able to provide them something, something else and be able to, to help them get to where they want to be. Cause it's not always about just responding to that, whatever's right in front of us. So, so both of those, I get, I've read both of those in the past, past year or so and fantastic books. There's, there's a lot out there. So I think in general that there's, there's more really good content out there today with, with books than, than I remember in, in recent years for sure.

[01:04:26] So especially from a business perspective. So I'm sure you've had some good recommendations. Yeah. The really good recommendations you just gave. I would really, really enjoy deep work. We just got to protect our time, right. To be able to do that. Yeah. And, and you know, you look at what, what can be accomplished if you do truly allow yourself to protect your time and to get in that, that mode. And that's ultimately what we're trying to achieve.

[01:04:50] And I think we feel like many times that we're, we're being productive because we're responding to the emails immediately and responding to the chat or the text or anything. And we have to, I think, really set out what's our objective here. Objective is to move things forward. Whatever that thing is, whether it's the organization or yourself or your client, we look forward to how do we get there and how do we do that the best. And I think more times than not, I'm not the smart one here saying this, but it's being able to really focus and get that consistent time. And it's different for everybody.

[01:05:20] That's, I think that's what I've learned about myself. There's take some reflection is that some people it's probably 30 minutes or an hour. For me, I've got to have solid blocks of takes me a while to really decompress and get into that phase. And for me, it's no less than two hours to be able to really focus deep on something. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more than that. I can't do anything with a four half hour block spread out. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, for sure. It's just, just not going to move the needle there.

[01:05:51] Tons MSPs listening and anybody else. How can they get ahold of you? Yeah, I think, you know, best way is, you know, shoot me an email. mjackson at pendello.com, P-E-N-D-E-L-L-O.com. And, you know, again, if I'm back to previous, previous comment, if I'm in a focus mode, sorry, if I, it takes me a little bit, get back, back, back to you. But shoot me an email, honestly. And that's the best way to get, get ahold of me. Always.

[01:06:16] I love talking about the industry and what we can do and swapping ideas. I think there's, in general, we can all help each other to move forward. And so there's a lot of business to be had out there and a lot of opportunity. I think we can all help each other. And so I'd love to talk about this kind of stuff. Yeah. Make sure to take Mike up on that. Mike, thank you for the gift of your time and your wisdom. Thank you. And thank you for being on MSP Mindset. Awesome. Thank you. Appreciate it.