Scott Daigger, Buddy Web Design and Development

[00:00:00] Carrie Richardson: Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Carrie Richardson. I'm a partner at Richardson and Richardson, and I'm your host of WIN today. With me today is Scott Daigger, who is the CEO of Buddy Web Design and Development in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Thanks for joining us today, Scott.

[00:00:16] Scott Daigger: Thanks for having me. It's nice to be here. 

[00:00:19] Journey to Starting Buddy Web Design and Development

[00:00:19] Scott Daigger: Tell us how Buddy Web Design and Development started. 

[00:00:23] Scott Daigger: So my background I'm from Wisconsin originally. Went to undergrad and got my MBA at Wisconsin at the university there. And my career is really business heavy. Startups, technology development, innovation, that sort of thing. So it brought me to Grand Rapids is back in 2009. I got recruited to work for, a big healthcare system here in West Michigan.

[00:00:41] Scott Daigger: And I led up their innovations program. So moved to Michigan and worked with that program and that team for almost a decade . And that was, working on new med device technologies and apps and software for healthcare . 

[00:00:52] Scott Daigger: We all reach a point where what's next growth wise . And for me, where my head was is I had a lot of experience in business leadership roles [00:01:00] and operations and technology development . But that role at Spectrum was super niche.

[00:01:04] Scott Daigger: It wasn't like I could just go across the block and, take a VP role . So my thought process was more of an IT career track maybe that makes the most sense if I double down in some sort of technology space. And I thought while I've got a job, that's, paying a salary, , why don't I learn to code? 

[00:01:18] Scott Daigger: I had, project management and those other softer skills, but never really formally learned the coding . So I hopped on Udemy the learning training website and took a bunch of courses on HTML and CSS and react and node and really nerded out with it and found actually really liked the technical, more scientific side of things, but the creative outlet was really fun also, and gravitated towards web development. 

[00:01:42] Scott Daigger: After about six months of learning, I found Upwork, the freelancing websites and just thought why don't I give this a whirl and was able to land a couple of projects right away.

[00:01:51] Scott Daigger: Back then I still was learning, but because of my business background, the sales was easier than I thought it would be. I thought I was going to go into these calls and get grilled on all sorts of [00:02:00] technical nuances and security and that kind of stuff.

[00:02:02] Scott Daigger: And really it was just talking with business owners about what they needed and I could translate that into, a web website or what they needed also. 

[00:02:09] Scott Daigger: After landing a couple of gigs, it just was at a point life wise work wise was ready for a change. 

[00:02:14] Scott Daigger: And my wife gave me the okay. So I left my job with the intent to just try freelancing.

[00:02:20] Scott Daigger: And our agreement was, if it works out great, if not let's get a job . And that was almost four and a half years ago. 

[00:02:28] The Evolution and Growth of Buddy Web Design and Development

[00:02:28] Scott Daigger: So buddy started out with just me, myself and I, and has grown since. Now we've got a team of developers and designers. I'll bring in a projects, quality assurance, project management.

[00:02:37] Scott Daigger: So it's evolved from just, dabbling to an actual, like real live growing business. So it's been pretty cool.

[00:02:44] The Business Side of Running a Web Design Company

[00:02:44] Carrie Richardson: What's your favorite part of running the business? 

[00:02:46] Carrie Richardson: You mentioned that you have an MBA. Do you consider yourself more of a business person? Are you more of a creative person or do you enjoy the technical work?

[00:02:55] Scott Daigger: Yeah, I'd say definitely the business owner. I like having my hands on a lot of things. I like [00:03:00] business operations. I like, doing the sales calls. I like doing the HR side of things. I like working with our developers on projects, but what I love the most is just the independence and be able to grow something.

[00:03:11] Scott Daigger: It's a team effort and buddy would not be anywhere. near as successful as it is today without us being able to bring together a team of really talented, just good people. But being able to work in that sort of environment really is important to me. And it adds a lot of value to my life.

[00:03:26] Scott Daigger: And I think a lot of freelancers or entrepreneurs can relate that to where you want to be in control of your destiny and, not day to day driving into the office feeling okay I'm Investing a lot of mental energy and time to make somebody else wealthy and those sort of things do just grinds at you away when you've got that kind of drive to do something of your own.

[00:03:44] Carrie Richardson: So when you worked with the health system previously, was that in a managerial role? Did that prepare you to manage projects and people? 

[00:03:53] Scott Daigger: Yeah, that was a manager position. So I did have a team that reported to me. I've done lots of different startups, been lots of different teams, been [00:04:00] in different leadership capacities as well too.

[00:04:01] Scott Daigger: So I think in that role, that was very healthcare specific. So joining Spectrum Health, like holy cow, that was a drink from the fire hose of just learning about, gosh, anatomy and procedures and different departments in the hospital and how it all fits together and that kind of stuff. And then actually exploring and developing, technologies that could be used in that space .

[00:04:20] Scott Daigger: That was definitely a big learning just in the health care industry as well. And some of the challenges and opportunities they face as well, too. Was a good chance to learn a lot about it. Technology platforms and project management tools and things like that, and a lot of those operational things, especially that we used in that role, I was able to apply it and use this kind of scale up Buddy's operations in a really efficient way. 

[00:04:43] Carrie Richardson: So you had some experience managing people already. It wasn't a big shock to your system to come in and now have to assign projects and roles to people. You mentioned that you liked business development. And you anticipated that it was going to be more challenging than you thought.

[00:04:58] Business Development and Marketing Strategies

[00:04:58] Carrie Richardson: Can you tell me what your [00:05:00] approach is like? How do you go about finding new business for Buddy? 

[00:05:03] Scott Daigger: Yeah. We can talk both prospecting and that kind of sales approach too. Prospecting, we were chatting before we started the podcast recording, it's really, planting a lot of seeds in different places. Where I first started was Upwork, the freelancing platform, and I've weaned off that over time.

[00:05:17] Scott Daigger: I still. Check in once in a while, we'll apply to some jobs and that sort of thing. Upwork is a great platform. I found at least in my experience when we're just getting started, but it is used really widely, so costs and your pricing is really under a lot of pressure because a lot of folks there.

[00:05:34] Scott Daigger: Generalizing here, which I know isn't always correct, but my experience, it seems like really whoever's lowest cost gets an advantage, so we're no longer cheap . We aren't the most expensive, but we're more in the middle where we do good work.

[00:05:45] Scott Daigger: We offer good customer service. If you're looking for a hundred dollar website, like that's not the best fit for us . I've used a lot of LinkedIn outreach to grow. Also SEO. I'm working currently on building out some marketing infrastructure for opt in email marketing , but really in [00:06:00] the last year, what's been really cool is our referrals.

[00:06:04] Scott Daigger: And repeat customers are really starting to blossom too. So I've been doing this for, I think about four and a half years now. And we're at a point where we've got enough of, I'll say nest egg for lack of a better term of prior clients that now want additional work or are ready for modifications or referring a friend or colleague where that's starting to become pretty self sustaining of itself as well, too.

[00:06:25] Scott Daigger: We've got a good clump of business there. And then those extra things that proactive outreach, proactive marketing, or just icing on top . , I'm really grateful to be at that point marketing wise right now.

[00:06:34] Carrie Richardson: Are you the primary business developer or did you find somebody that was really great at that? 

[00:06:40] Scott Daigger: The timing is good for that question. Earlier on with Buddy, I had used indeed, the jobs website, and posted some jobs there just for freelance contractor sales help and did find a handful of folks, some people worked out well, some people just didn't.

[00:06:55] Scott Daigger: I don't know indeed algorithm or their rules for posting , but it seems [00:07:00] like around when COVID hit, they changed their model and you had to then pay for postings. I had prior posted like just bunches of free job postings on indeed to try to find folks that were great.

[00:07:11] Scott Daigger: Then I got away from that. And now it looks like I'm able to again post stuff. So I've been back in the business of trying to find more. So I do think there's some value that, you know, and finding some extra folks and making it a win where. If they can bring in leads, offer a nice commission for that.

[00:07:26] Scott Daigger: That's one more, tool and toolbox to plant seeds and build relationships. 

[00:07:30] Carrie Richardson: So are you working with commission based business developers in your local area? 

[00:07:36] Scott Daigger: Nationwide, actually. Fortunately, we're all remote. So all of our team members are all over the country, probably half of our business is in Michigan where we're based, but they're half is all over the country .

[00:07:45] Scott Daigger: So the way usually I'll structure those relationships with the contractors is, Hey, like you work, whatever hours makes sense for you, your time, that kind of stuff. And we'll just structure compensation. Whereas when a project comes in and closes, we'll just share the revenue. And usually [00:08:00] we, we'll bill our clients on like thirds.

[00:08:02] Scott Daigger: So like a third upfront. a third of the midpoints, a third of what's done. I'll tie it just for cash flows, those commission payments along with those. So when money comes in, money gets paid out, that sort of thing. That's worked pretty well for us . It's been a good strategy and I'm looking to grow that again, as long as I'm able to keep posting those jobs in an effective way.

[00:08:19] Carrie Richardson: I just did the math on that because in my mind, 2020 was last year and it's been last year for four years now. Did you start buddy right before the pandemic hit? 

[00:08:29] Scott Daigger: I think it was 2019 right before I left and there was a few months of work then COVID hit and our daughter at that point was either four or five.

[00:08:38] Scott Daigger: She was still doing like daycare day to day. And when COVID hit, we made the decision in March of that year to just bring her home since I was home. After about six months of flying solo at home, I then was, trying to grow the business and be dad during COVID. And then she started kindergarten.

[00:08:52] Scott Daigger: So we did kindergarten at home together and just, had the very typical COVID experience like a lot of parents did also. But man, really glad to have [00:09:00] some normalcy on that regard to get everyone's back where they need to be in school and. Focusing on work and that kind of stuff. 

[00:09:05] Carrie Richardson: You didn't teach her how to code while you had her at home?

[00:09:08] Scott Daigger: No, but I'm really proud. I helped her learn how to read and ride a bike and that kind of stuff. So it was, some silver lines of COVID being able to be home and help with some of those milestones and that kind of stuff. But Holy cow. I don't know about, your experience during COVID too, but that was a lot more work helping teach kids when they were doing virtual school than I ever would have imagined for sure.

[00:09:26] Carrie Richardson: Both of my children were in Canada. During the pandemic, there was two weeks of quarantine on either side of the border. So a visit meant a month of quarantine. So it was unfortunate that I didn't get to see them for quite a bit during the pandemic.

[00:09:39] Carrie Richardson: But I also didn't have to homeschool anybody during the pandemic, I have a lot of respect for the people that did have to do that. What was the what was the biggest challenge for your business through the pandemic? Did you see any client loss or did you have a big boom?

[00:09:53] Scott Daigger: Yeah, it just was get through it, honestly, because that was still really early in Buddy's, foundation. So at that point it was [00:10:00] scraped together what clients had put from Upwork primarily. And then grow the business, as best I could, we'll try and juggle home life and parenting and teaching and that kind of stuff also too.

[00:10:08] Scott Daigger: So it was, I think the, year on year metric was higher in year two than year one, which is good, but it wasn't like I was giving it the full court press like I would have wanted to. Around that time, though, is when my mind shifted of how to scale up the business more which kind of led to the model we have now where.

[00:10:23] Scott Daigger: When I started, it was me doing sales and development design, like everything by myself. And with some limited bandwidth because of COVID, I started thinking about how do I scale this up a little bit and thought that, with my business background that's where my strengths are and like that's where my comfort zone is day to day in the business operations. When it comes to web design development, I've done fine, but I haven't done this for 20 years.

[00:10:47] There are people that are just really good. I'm not that level. So my thought was, could I focus on sales and marketing and then bring in some team members to really champion doing a great job? So I then at that point, during [00:11:00] COVID started to find designers developers to bring in under the Buddy umbrella. And that's really been our model since where, we have a network of contractors, but we work together as a team to do what we do and offer good service . So that really was a big shift.

[00:11:14] Carrie Richardson: You had mentioned that you had some experience with startups before you came to Michigan to work with the health system. Was it a huge difference between working on building someone else's business with the experience that you had and the education that you had versus applying it to your own business?

[00:11:30] Carrie Richardson: Did you ever catch yourself thinking wait a minute, I know better than this. 

[00:11:35] Scott Daigger: Yeah. So I've done my own startups. Some did okay. A lot of those didn't pan out. Being around other entrepreneur startups, you still learn the same lessons.

[00:11:41] Scott Daigger: I think it's always more fun when you've got skin in the game as opposed to working for somebody else, but that's just me. That's how I'm wired. I was really mindful in starting Buddy, was thinking about what's an industry where there's already demand, having done so many starts before where you've got what you think is some novel solution, but [00:12:00] people aren't begging for it.

[00:12:01] Scott Daigger: You've really got to educate and find folks and say hey, here's my better mousetrap. Here's why it's better. Here's why your current solution should be a pain point for you, that sort of stuff but Buddy, like people already are looking for help with websites and design and SEO.

[00:12:14] Scott Daigger: So it doesn't make it easy, but it makes it less hard at least, where people get what you're offering, have value in it . So that was probably the biggest lesson . Just trying to be in a space or industry or offer a service where there's already demand versus going against the flow.

[00:12:30] Carrie Richardson: So a lower education cycle. Do you work with businesses that are starting up that don't have a web presence at all?

[00:12:36] Carrie Richardson: Or are you more inclined to work with organizations where they're, let's say, growing up or growing into a more robust requirement for their web presence? 

[00:12:48] Scott Daigger: More of the latter nowadays. When I first started our projects were pretty small budget wise. Usually folks that were just getting their first website.

[00:12:55] Scott Daigger: Kind of like the, I need something. It doesn't have to be fancy, but just like I need the site. Now [00:13:00] when we are working with entrepreneurs or new businesses. Usually they have more of an established budget where they're like, okay, we, we are a new business, but like we need a good site out of the gate.

[00:13:09] Scott Daigger: And we know that's not the hundred dollar website. So those are maybe a quarter of our clients, but probably three quarters are more established businesses. They're local businesses. They've been around for a lot of years. They've got clients, they've got revenue, they've got a budget for marketing, but not their own internal web team.

[00:13:24] Scott Daigger: Those are the businesses that are usually more are our clients and our bread and butter. 

[00:13:30] The Impact of AI on the Web Design Industry

[00:13:30] Carrie Richardson: What do you see happening in the next 5 years with AI, what is going to happen with your industry as AI evolves and develops and becomes more dominant?

[00:13:42] Scott Daigger: That's the million dollar question right now, too. So a social network I like is Reddit. I'm on there, once in a while, and I saw a discussion a few months ago. And granted, even in a few months, there's been a lot of developments with the AI and the videos and things like that. But someone at that point was talking about using AI for graphic design specifically, [00:14:00] and basically made the point in short that while a I could generate the thing like the deliverable, the brochure a I so far isn't gonna be able to take a client that doesn't know what they want and translate that into something else to set that human connection and that translating like what they have in their brain.

[00:14:17] Scott Daigger: Maybe at some point we'll close that gap and get closer there too. I think from my reference points and I am no way going to say I'm an AI visionary expert, those sort of things. It seems like what we're seeing so far is like content generation .

[00:14:29] Scott Daigger: AI suggesting page titles or paragraphs. There are more templates and tools that will give you a layout , but it seems like even With those tools, there will still be a need, at least in the short term, for what I'll call translators, for lack of a better term, of translating what a client says they want versus what actually makes sense. 

[00:14:48] Scott Daigger: Even in sales conversations, there are so many levers to pull as far as what someone might have in their mind for the website versus what makes sense budget wise. And how do you close that gap? If you're saying, Hey, I want, I'm thinking about a [00:15:00] 20 page website and my budget is 1000.

[00:15:02] Scott Daigger: Like that's probably not going to happen. So where can you shift and, consolidate that kind of stuff or phase things out? So I think there's still gonna be that sort of role. It's just I think the tools will get smarter as well. But it's interesting time. And I think, it'll be, I think, probably a lot of folks really curious just to see what's gonna happen also, too.

[00:15:21] Scott Daigger: But that's my take as of. February 2024, and I guess we'll see what happens. 

[00:15:27] Carrie Richardson: Timestamp. . We'll talk in a year and see what happens. I'm interested in knowing whether or not AI is going to cause pushback on pricing when I think about perhaps working with my lawyer, for example, who charges a significant amount hourly, if I suspect that my lawyer is just feeding things through AI, am I going to be willing to spend the same kind of money that I used to be willing to spend on that service?

[00:15:50] Carrie Richardson: I think the same will go for marketing. If I suspect that my marketing firm is doing everything using an AI system, am I going to be okay paying the prices that I paid [00:16:00] last year? 

[00:16:01] Scott Daigger: It's interesting. I think just, and this probably goes for any service but in the web development space, graphic design to just perceptions of what things should cost versus what they cost to.

[00:16:11] Scott Daigger: And I know from prior experience, like getting quotes for websites and it's just holy cow, like that dollar amount is crazy. But, there are some big businesses that will spend a lot of money and Buddy doesn't play in that space right now. But I think part of it is just people's perception of Oh you should knock this out really quick.

[00:16:28] Scott Daigger: This is really easy. So why is the cost that much? When you're talking to a business owner, it's like their checkbook, their money, like absolutely. I think we all relate to that and be more money conscious.

[00:16:38] Scott Daigger: But when you're with a bigger organization and there's more money allocated And you also realize how many things are on your plate as like a marketing manager, bringing somebody in that can do a really good job like that's more of a no brainer.

[00:16:48] Scott Daigger: Okay, I've got the budget allocation for it. I know you guys are gonna do a great job. You're gonna take care of all these things for me. That's definitely worth it to you. 

[00:16:55] Scott Daigger: But I think you're right. This is far as people's perceptions and how technology influences [00:17:00] that makes folks think things should be cheaper and made.

[00:17:02] Scott Daigger: It should be and all that kind of stuff. It's a lot of variables there. 

[00:17:05] Carrie Richardson: Okay. Be interested in seeing how it affects creatives moving forward . I haven't actually seen any of the new AI video. I have actually been pretty busy and I get sucked into stuff like that real easy. I can't go, I can't go over there right now, but I assume it's pretty cool because everyone's posting about it. What do you see as the biggest opportunity for your business in the next, one to three years? 

[00:17:30] Scott Daigger: Yeah. I think for Buddy there's two different things in my mind: one, because buddy is just scaling up.

[00:17:35] Scott Daigger: We've got good operations, we've got a good team, like when projects come in, we can knock them out. We're organized . So I think part of it is just trying to pour gas in the fire, and just ramp this up. Yeah. Externally, like there are all these other changes also too. So it's while I want to, put the foot on the gas pedal for our current model is that sustainable for five years? Is the landscape going to shift? So it's funny how it's doubled down, really build on what we currently have, but also mindful of What's the [00:18:00] world going to be like in a year or five years?

[00:18:01] Scott Daigger: One lesson I've seen a lot is entrepreneurs that start something, get a little bit of traction. Then they're like, Oh, I can also do this and this. And they just mentally start getting really spread thin and trying to conquer the world and Nope, stay in your lane, grow this, be patient.

[00:18:15] Scott Daigger: So there's part of that for me too, where our bread and butter right now is web design. Development and we do some graphic design work like logos, brand, that kind of stuff. But for me also how can we help out more and SEO ? Also, just more broad marketing.

[00:18:27] Scott Daigger: This paradox of how do stay in our lane and grow that and stay true to who we are, but also really mindful that, on the periphery, there's lots of changes that are going to make things drastically different than they are now. 

[00:18:37] Carrie Richardson: Do you follow a formal strategic planning process, or do you subscribe to one of the sales methodologies that are widely used? 

[00:18:46] Scott Daigger: Not in a real deliberate sort of way. I think it's more organic for me also, despite having gone to a lot of school for business strategy and lots of management classes and things like that.

[00:18:54] Scott Daigger: I haven't done a SWOT analysis on Buddy for like forever. There's. Continual reflection on [00:19:00] operations and what's working well. On a quarterly basis I do a informal review just how things are going.

[00:19:04] Scott Daigger: I would say probably not like the very academic way that you learn at business school or those sort of things. 

[00:19:10] Carrie Richardson: Do you feel like having an MBA has benefited you to be able to be more patient or to make choices differently when you compare yourself to say appear in the same business that started building websites and then had to get all of their business education the hard and expensive way by making lots of errors.

[00:19:30] Scott Daigger: Yeah. So that's a really good question. I did the MBA at Wisconsin back in 2005, 2007, and the way Wisconsin is set up, or at least was at that point, was there wasn't like one general MBA. You'd pick one of, I think, 13 concentrations.

[00:19:44] Scott Daigger: So I did the entrepreneurship tracks, like the first year was more general MBA, and then you did more and more. And that focus and very good experience. Overall, staff was wonderful. Just I'm really glad I did it. Even more than the book learning, what I think was helpful was more being exposed to other entrepreneurs who've been there and [00:20:00] done that, and just realizing these people are really talented, but there's no reason I can't do that also. And I think getting over those mental hurdles . These people still put their pants on one leg at a time, like that kind of thing was probably the biggest shift. Does it make starting business easy?

[00:20:13] Scott Daigger: Absolutely not. But I think so those minds, mind shift. Mindset shifts. I think we're really helpful to, but you do learn the academic things: how to think through things, how to value things, how to do financial projections the right way. Granted I've probably forgotten 95 percent of those mechanics and those sort of things.

[00:20:29] Scott Daigger: I remember at the time they advertised the program as being a transformational experience. And it's hard to know what that means going into a program like that thinking what is that? Is that just marketing speak? But I think it really was because you, for me, at least identify yourself differently.

[00:20:44] Scott Daigger: So it's funny, like having that MBA I can play that card if I need to, if it's important to be like, I've got an MBA, but day to day, it's more, Make good decisions, being mindful of cash flows. That's a huge thing. Building relationships, being a good partner, under promising, over [00:21:00] delivering like those sorts of things you learn from being around and molding your values.

[00:21:03] Scott Daigger: But I wouln't attribute that to book learning per se, if that makes sense. That's a tactful, but like accurate answer . 

[00:21:09] Carrie Richardson: Now, I'm always curious about that. I didn't go to school at all, so I didn't have a lot of Basis on which to grow my business other than like one of those what the hell am I going to do now?

[00:21:21] Carrie Richardson: Kind of stories. 

[00:21:23] Scott Daigger: And it's interesting to think about now too, like just with virtual schools and that kind of stuff. And I, despite having gone to school formally for business, like I learned a lot of tech stuff through Udemy or last few years, and that cost me like 200 bucks for a bunch of courses.

[00:21:37] Scott Daigger: And it's just interesting thinking about how, in a decade, kids going to college what does that look like? I really value that sort of educational environment, but what role will that play and what's the cost going to be compared to, just tech learning and that kind of stuff too.

[00:21:50] Scott Daigger: So it's just as a side topic, just interesting how, what skills are valuable, where you learn those and what sort of context and that kind of stuff. And I think I'll always be a proponent of learn. But,[00:22:00] if I had to do it over again, would I do the MBA? Probably, but I wish I would have had more formal training in technology 

[00:22:05] Carrie Richardson: all right. 

[00:22:06] Advice for Businesses Seeking Web Design Services

[00:22:06] Carrie Richardson: So last question, if a business is looking at creating a new web presence, what are the most important things that they should ask a company that they're considering partnering with? 

[00:22:20] Scott Daigger: First off a good to first get a sense of what you're looking for.

[00:22:23] Scott Daigger: Do you need e commerce or not? 

[00:22:25] Scott Daigger: What pages should be on the site? 

[00:22:26] Scott Daigger: Do you have a visual style and that sort of stuff? 

[00:22:29] Scott Daigger: And once you at least know what you're looking for, that will help you vet. Out developers. For example, if you Google, developers in your area or ask for referrals or things like that, I think knowing those things will let you peruse through their portfolios and say, hey, do I like their aesthetic style?

[00:22:45] Scott Daigger: Do they have similar sites where I feel confident what they're going to do? But I think from there then really, it's just hopping on the phone call and making sure you've got a good rapport with them and hopefully you see that they've got some good testimonials or referrals or other folks that can vouch for that developer also too.

[00:22:59] Scott Daigger: [00:23:00] Really, even though if you're looking for a website you're looking to this person to champion it for you, it very much is a partnership. No, one's going to know your business as well as you do. The developer will know the tech side and the design side, but really it's a back and forth partnership.

[00:23:12] Scott Daigger: So you've got to really have somebody you trust. And feel good about that. You can communicate well with and work together for, a month, 3 months, 6 months, whatever that duration is. And then hopefully longer term also. So if anything needs to be changed, you've hopefully got somebody you can rely on and feel good about .

[00:23:27] 

[00:23:27] Carrie Richardson: Is it kosher to collect a bunch of websites that you like and say, Hey, can you make me something that looks like this? Or is no bueno when it comes to other people's work? 

[00:23:35] Scott Daigger: That's muy bueno. That's really helpful too. One of the things we ask right away is, Are there other websites, either from your competitors or just sites in general you like to look and feel of?

[00:23:43] Scott Daigger: And literally in our kickoff call, once we sign our agreement and say, yep, we're gonna do this, we'll have a kickoff call together where we'll talk through those and churn through, what is it that you like about it? Is the general looks? Do you like the navigation menu? Do you like the way the text is?

[00:23:56] Scott Daigger: You like photos, those sort of things too. One thing that can be [00:24:00] overwhelming is feeling like you've got this blank slate and I don't even know where to start. You don't need to start from scratch. The easiest starting point is finding things you like, and then just either by yourself or with a professional talking through what is it about those you like.

[00:24:13] Scott Daigger: And if you've got a talented developer or designer, you can, that person can extract what you're saying and craft it. And it's going to really mesh well with what those sites have in common, what you like, those sort of things. So it's a really good question. 

[00:24:25] Carrie Richardson: So you'd be able to almost see a thread that goes through the similarities between the four websites that I like.

[00:24:31] Scott Daigger: Yep. And ideally if, you go through those first steps where, you know, as you look through a prospective developers portfolio, you like their stuff, then yeah, all those things should align really well. 

[00:24:41] Conclusion and Future Predictions

[00:24:41] Scott Daigger: At least on paper, those should align really well. 

[00:24:45] Carrie Richardson: Excellent. Thank you so much for being with us today, Scott.

[00:24:47] Carrie Richardson: It was wonderful talking to you. It's always nice to have a Michigander on the podcast we will look forward to checking in with you a year from now or so, Scott, and we'll see if your AI predictions came through.[00:25:00] 

[00:25:00] Scott Daigger: We'll see. It's going to be, it's going to be interesting no matter what. 

[00:25:03] Carrie Richardson: Have a great afternoon.